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"It's shameful that we - as cartographers of the world - don't take enough interest to even know where they are. People are living and dying without appearing o

"It's shameful that we - as cartographers of the world - don't take enough interest to even know where they are. People are living and dying without appearing on any database." I know. Context. Context. There's nothing wrong with the above, with last sentence in context. But that last sentence makes me cringe, these days. The thought! The very thought that a human being may be anonymous, not counted, not known, not measured, watched, their every whim calculated and predicatively known, their essence stored for the ages. A human! Look, over there! A human, and.. and... it's not in our database! YOUR NAME, NOW! YOUR ID, NOW! Who are you? What is your precise address? Who were your parents? Where do you bank, work, live? Write all your friends down on this piece of paper, everything you ever read or do, NOW! In other contexts, in other paragraphs, that same sentence would be uttered by Gollum archetypes at Facebook, Google, the CIA/NSA/etc, well.. essentially, everywhere. The horror for them. Gollum, writhing at the thought, horror on his face: "People are living and dying without appearing on any database." How can this be?! HOW! Not tracked?! All those that wish to profit, or mistakenly believe knowing when we take a dump, will "make them safe". Watch. Watch, spy, sneak, slither, control. Get the precious, hold it close, data is the new gold, the new devil, the new evil. And they covet it. All those little gollums, writhing their hands, wanting their precious, their precious data. shudder

mahathu 6y ago
Exactly! I generally agree with the sentiment of the article, and see the importance for issues like healthcare, but that sentence seemed so wrong to me. "People are living and dying without appearing on any database." Isn't this, like, a good thing? Now on the other side, of course this is the definition of a first world problem, but not having a say in whether or not I actually want to appear in big techs databases isn't exactly ideal either!
- jimmaswell 6y ago
  What big tech databases are you forced into just by living? Do you count banks and social security here?
  - ethanwillis 6y ago
    Facebook tracking people who never sign up for an account with them. Don't be dense, big tech does make an effort to track people who don't want to be tracked. https://www.vox.com/2018/4/20/17254312/facebook-shadow-profiles-data-collection-non-users-mark-zuckerberg https://www.vox.com/2018/4/20/17254312/facebook-shadow-profi...
    - jimmaswell 6y ago
      seems relatively insignificant to me.
sebmellen 6y ago
Even in context, the whole concept is a bit strange. If I read something like this, coming from just 40 years ago, it would seem absurd. I strongly dislike the urge of modern humans to categorize and analyze everything (very non-tech sounding, I know).
- thatoneuser 6y ago
  Was just strolling through a park yesterday and walked across a duck with a big tag on each leg. Thought to myself that even in seeking nature, nothings natural. We know down to the family level what the animals are doing. It can have it's upsides, but it's also disgusting in its own way. And just like you I thought to myself how I love analysis, but I don't have enough confidence in fellow men to feel ok with them doing the analysis.
- saalweachter 6y ago
  Eh, we have clay tablets thousands of years old that are just lists of things.
  - IncRnd 6y ago
    Here, in this conversaion, the discussion is about the visceral need that people have to categorize and place other people into databases. It's not about lists of things.
- ip26 6y ago
  “Measurement is the first step that leads to control and eventually to improvement. If you can't measure something, you can't understand it. If you can't understand it, you can't control it. If you can't control it, you can't improve it.” The quote is specifically about business, but the concept is universal. In the case of this article, Ivan Gayton is interested in controlling disease & improving health. He needs to measure the population to understand the spread of disease.
  - jhardy54 6y ago
    Yes, but "improve" is often subjective, and systems of surveillance and control take away power from people being surveiled and controlled.
nelaboras 6y ago
I think you're missing the point and purposefully misinterpreting this statement. Its not about tracking these people, its about allowing them to participate in today's world - from healthcare to mail.
- PuffinBlue 6y ago
  There it is: the siren call of the proselytising do gooder. My advancements will succour thee and into the warm boosm of modernity embrace.
  - AmericanChopper 6y ago
    I think this specifically relates to a slightly different problem, which is domain experts viewing their domain as being much more important than it actually is. There’s no reason at all to presume that a cartographer would have anything insightful to say about anything aside from cartography. Society has vested interests in many different areas, but cartographers can only be relied upon to have an interest in furthering the goals of cartography.
    - nitrogen 6y ago
      I don't know, part of me agrees that specialization can lead to shortsightedness, but part of me also feels like this siloing of knowledge and siloing of influence is a way to divide and conquer, ensuring that only a select few have any say in society's direction.
      - AmericanChopper 6y ago
        I’d say the siloing is necessary, but your concerns about its consequences result from poor leadership. It’s a problem that I’m sure most of us have seen play out at work. Companies tend to be divided into specialized departments, but if any of those departments gain too much influence over the rest of the company, things can go badly. Overly influential sales or security departments are a common thing people like to complain about. But if you end up with a company led by its sales team, it’s not really the sales teams fault, they’re just doing their job and advocating for the interests of the sales team. That failure would be with executive leadership, who’s supposed to listen to the advice/concerns of many different groups, each with their own specialized area of interest, and balance all their needs out according to some sort of over arching strategy. The same thing happens in public policy. For example, police are always going to advocate giving more power to police, because it helps them do their jobs and achieve the goals of their organization. That by itself is not a problem, because the role of government is to listen to those concerns and then to balance them out with all of society’s other interests. If that doesn’t happen to your satisfaction, it’s a failure of government, not of the police. It’s also one of the reasons why leadership during a crisis or after a tragedy is so prone to producing bad outcomes. Because those circumstances put one area of interest in the spotlight and make it very easy to forget about everything else. That’s how we ended up with the patriot act.
new2628 6y ago
There are some nice essays on this concept called "legibility" -- where modern societies hate those systems that are "illegible" in the sense of not being fully mapped, characterized, understood. In most developed countries this is the attitude towards wildlife for example. Unless all migratory birds are counted, their nests photographed, their legs tagged, their beaks measured and catalogued, it is as if they wouldn't exist. This is considered a shortcoming, a deficit, and environmentalists organize "bird tagging" events where they try to remedy the situation. In traditional societies wildlife is just there, and it is fine to leave it "illegible".
- exprez135 6y ago
  This really interests me. Do you have any specific essays/references you could point me to? I've managed to find a couple things online, but I would appreciate any recommendations you have.
  - new2628 6y ago
    I think I read about it here first: https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2010/07/26/a-big-little-idea-called-legibility/ https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2010/07/26/a-big-little-idea-call... There are further links in the post.
- cowboysauce 6y ago
  All those things that you've mentioned provide data that is used to measure the health of bird populations and can serve as an early warning if those populations start to drop. Tagging also allows biologists to determine the routes taken by migratory birds. This in turn allows them to determine what areas serve as habitats for the birds and determine if their migratory paths are changing. How do you propose monitoring the health of bird populations, making recommendations for areas that need to be protected, or a myriad of other things without having the relevant data? It's easy to smugly talk about how developed nations are obsessed with numbers and figure when you ignore that those numbers and figures are used to form policies that have tangible effects.
  - 6y ago
Jabbles 6y ago
Don't write posts like this - it has nothing to do with the article. You know what they meant, you chose to reword it and then complain about the rewording. Now instead of discussing the article or the humanitarian crisis behind it, people (like me) have to read and respond to you. Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- Lammy 6y ago
  “He says in today's digital society, not being on a map is akin to being invisible. “ As someone who enjoys being invisible I liked their comment very much and don’t find it out of context here at all.
chiph 6y ago
Something I was amazed to see as still being a valid proof of birth is a family bible. Not everyone has their birth recorded via a government-issued birth certificate. https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passports/how-apply/citizenship-evidence.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passports/how-app...
jimmaswell 6y ago
Even just from the blurb, a more charitable interpretation is simply cataloguing locations and understanding cultures.
reaperducer 6y ago
The younger people at work can't believe that I didn't have a Social Security number until I was 17. I only got one so I could get a passport. I didn't even have a name until I was a year old. When I mentioned that to my astonished wife, I did some research, and found that it was common in that era, and even today in many communities, not to name a child for a year or two. It used to be that you didn't have to be tabulated in anyone's database until your parents wanted to use you as a tax deduction. Mine never did.
- elgenie 6y ago
  Until a few hundred years ago, a quarter of children died before reaching a year of age. Traditions of not naming children until they reach a certain age milestone are likely outgrowths of societies processing that reality, as opposed to attempts to stay out of databases.
ip26 6y ago
On the other hand, slight tangent, I always found it gut-wrenching that casualties in war have error bars of hundreds of thousands of people- even if you narrow your focus to just active combatants. We send hordes of young men into conflict, and somehow we can't even hold ourselves accountable for their deaths.
gallegojaime 6y ago
It is detrimental for any country not to have a system that identifies people and stores where they live. It is a basic pillar of how the government can make people accountable for committing crimes and not paying taxes.

mahathu 6y ago

Exactly! I generally agree with the sentiment of the article, and see the importance for issues like healthcare, but that sentence seemed so wrong to me. "People are living and dying without appearing on any database." Isn't this, like, a good thing? Now on the other side, of course this is the definition of a first world problem, but not having a say in whether or not I actually want to appear in big techs databases isn't exactly ideal either!

jimmaswell 6y ago
What big tech databases are you forced into just by living? Do you count banks and social security here?
- ethanwillis 6y ago
  Facebook tracking people who never sign up for an account with them. Don't be dense, big tech does make an effort to track people who don't want to be tracked. https://www.vox.com/2018/4/20/17254312/facebook-shadow-profiles-data-collection-non-users-mark-zuckerberg https://www.vox.com/2018/4/20/17254312/facebook-shadow-profi...
  - jimmaswell 6y ago
    seems relatively insignificant to me.

sebmellen 6y ago

Even in context, the whole concept is a bit strange. If I read something like this, coming from just 40 years ago, it would seem absurd. I strongly dislike the urge of modern humans to categorize and analyze everything (very non-tech sounding, I know).

thatoneuser 6y ago
Was just strolling through a park yesterday and walked across a duck with a big tag on each leg. Thought to myself that even in seeking nature, nothings natural. We know down to the family level what the animals are doing. It can have it's upsides, but it's also disgusting in its own way. And just like you I thought to myself how I love analysis, but I don't have enough confidence in fellow men to feel ok with them doing the analysis.
saalweachter 6y ago
Eh, we have clay tablets thousands of years old that are just lists of things.
- IncRnd 6y ago
  Here, in this conversaion, the discussion is about the visceral need that people have to categorize and place other people into databases. It's not about lists of things.
ip26 6y ago
“Measurement is the first step that leads to control and eventually to improvement. If you can't measure something, you can't understand it. If you can't understand it, you can't control it. If you can't control it, you can't improve it.” The quote is specifically about business, but the concept is universal. In the case of this article, Ivan Gayton is interested in controlling disease & improving health. He needs to measure the population to understand the spread of disease.
- jhardy54 6y ago
  Yes, but "improve" is often subjective, and systems of surveillance and control take away power from people being surveiled and controlled.

nelaboras 6y ago

I think you're missing the point and purposefully misinterpreting this statement. Its not about tracking these people, its about allowing them to participate in today's world - from healthcare to mail.

PuffinBlue 6y ago
There it is: the siren call of the proselytising do gooder. My advancements will succour thee and into the warm boosm of modernity embrace.
- AmericanChopper 6y ago
  I think this specifically relates to a slightly different problem, which is domain experts viewing their domain as being much more important than it actually is. There’s no reason at all to presume that a cartographer would have anything insightful to say about anything aside from cartography. Society has vested interests in many different areas, but cartographers can only be relied upon to have an interest in furthering the goals of cartography.
  - nitrogen 6y ago
    I don't know, part of me agrees that specialization can lead to shortsightedness, but part of me also feels like this siloing of knowledge and siloing of influence is a way to divide and conquer, ensuring that only a select few have any say in society's direction.
    - AmericanChopper 6y ago
      I’d say the siloing is necessary, but your concerns about its consequences result from poor leadership. It’s a problem that I’m sure most of us have seen play out at work. Companies tend to be divided into specialized departments, but if any of those departments gain too much influence over the rest of the company, things can go badly. Overly influential sales or security departments are a common thing people like to complain about. But if you end up with a company led by its sales team, it’s not really the sales teams fault, they’re just doing their job and advocating for the interests of the sales team. That failure would be with executive leadership, who’s supposed to listen to the advice/concerns of many different groups, each with their own specialized area of interest, and balance all their needs out according to some sort of over arching strategy. The same thing happens in public policy. For example, police are always going to advocate giving more power to police, because it helps them do their jobs and achieve the goals of their organization. That by itself is not a problem, because the role of government is to listen to those concerns and then to balance them out with all of society’s other interests. If that doesn’t happen to your satisfaction, it’s a failure of government, not of the police. It’s also one of the reasons why leadership during a crisis or after a tragedy is so prone to producing bad outcomes. Because those circumstances put one area of interest in the spotlight and make it very easy to forget about everything else. That’s how we ended up with the patriot act.

new2628 6y ago

There are some nice essays on this concept called "legibility" -- where modern societies hate those systems that are "illegible" in the sense of not being fully mapped, characterized, understood. In most developed countries this is the attitude towards wildlife for example. Unless all migratory birds are counted, their nests photographed, their legs tagged, their beaks measured and catalogued, it is as if they wouldn't exist. This is considered a shortcoming, a deficit, and environmentalists organize "bird tagging" events where they try to remedy the situation. In traditional societies wildlife is just there, and it is fine to leave it "illegible".

exprez135 6y ago
This really interests me. Do you have any specific essays/references you could point me to? I've managed to find a couple things online, but I would appreciate any recommendations you have.
- new2628 6y ago
  I think I read about it here first: https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2010/07/26/a-big-little-idea-called-legibility/ https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2010/07/26/a-big-little-idea-call... There are further links in the post.
cowboysauce 6y ago
All those things that you've mentioned provide data that is used to measure the health of bird populations and can serve as an early warning if those populations start to drop. Tagging also allows biologists to determine the routes taken by migratory birds. This in turn allows them to determine what areas serve as habitats for the birds and determine if their migratory paths are changing. How do you propose monitoring the health of bird populations, making recommendations for areas that need to be protected, or a myriad of other things without having the relevant data? It's easy to smugly talk about how developed nations are obsessed with numbers and figure when you ignore that those numbers and figures are used to form policies that have tangible effects.
- 6y ago

Jabbles 6y ago

Don't write posts like this - it has nothing to do with the article. You know what they meant, you chose to reword it and then complain about the rewording. Now instead of discussing the article or the humanitarian crisis behind it, people (like me) have to read and respond to you. Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Lammy 6y ago
“He says in today's digital society, not being on a map is akin to being invisible. “ As someone who enjoys being invisible I liked their comment very much and don’t find it out of context here at all.

chiph 6y ago

Something I was amazed to see as still being a valid proof of birth is a family bible. Not everyone has their birth recorded via a government-issued birth certificate. https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passports/how-apply/citizenship-evidence.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passports/how-app...

jimmaswell 6y ago

Even just from the blurb, a more charitable interpretation is simply cataloguing locations and understanding cultures.

reaperducer 6y ago

The younger people at work can't believe that I didn't have a Social Security number until I was 17. I only got one so I could get a passport. I didn't even have a name until I was a year old. When I mentioned that to my astonished wife, I did some research, and found that it was common in that era, and even today in many communities, not to name a child for a year or two. It used to be that you didn't have to be tabulated in anyone's database until your parents wanted to use you as a tax deduction. Mine never did.

elgenie 6y ago
Until a few hundred years ago, a quarter of children died before reaching a year of age. Traditions of not naming children until they reach a certain age milestone are likely outgrowths of societies processing that reality, as opposed to attempts to stay out of databases.

ip26 6y ago

On the other hand, slight tangent, I always found it gut-wrenching that casualties in war have error bars of hundreds of thousands of people- even if you narrow your focus to just active combatants. We send hordes of young men into conflict, and somehow we can't even hold ourselves accountable for their deaths.

gallegojaime 6y ago

It is detrimental for any country not to have a system that identifies people and stores where they live. It is a basic pillar of how the government can make people accountable for committing crimes and not paying taxes.