6 ms·

Finding the 'invisible' millions who are not on maps

75 points by neversaydie 6y ago

globular-toast 6y ago
I'm an OSM contributor and general map geek so I find it interesting to find unmapped areas. But the language used in this article seems unfortunate. For example: > People are living and dying without appearing on any database. What if they don't want to appear on any database? The motivations given later seem laudable, but it troubles me that it should be considered wrong simply to not appear on any database. Probably not what was meant, but it sounds like it. > It's shameful that we - as cartographers of the world - don't take enough interest to even know where they are. Shameful? Like, I should be ashamed of myself for mapping my local area, where I live and walk every day, rather than travelling to remotest Africa and mapping there? Again, I'm sure this isn't what was meant, but that is literally what it says. When reading further down the article it seems more sensible: giving the locals the tools and training needed to map the areas themselves. I'm just getting really sick of the ongoing narrative that says a) we should be ashamed of being born in a developed country and b) all other places on earth need to develop just like us.
andrewaylett 6y ago
The Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team: https://www.hotosm.org/ https://www.hotosm.org/ It's quite easy to contribute if you've any OpenStreetMap experience -- sign up for tasks on https://tasks.hotosm.org/ https://tasks.hotosm.org/ and you can see a list of open projects. There are often specific requests, like taking a tile of aerial photography and mapping out the roads and buildings.
- sradman 6y ago
  Humanitarian OpenSteetMap looks similar/complementary to Million Neighborhoods [1] mentioned today in another HN post [2]. Both articles seem to be timed with the opening of the 2020 State of the Map conference [3]. [1] https://millionneighborhoods.org/ https://millionneighborhoods.org/ [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23722133 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23722133 [3] https://2020.stateofthemap.org/ https://2020.stateofthemap.org/
chakerb 6y ago
> Google and Apple maps do not differentiate between a good road and a bad road - but that's so important They also don't differentiate some closed borders! I had an idea in mind to travel across the Arab Maghreb[0] (well excluding Libya for obvious reasons) after the COVID-19 situation start to get better. However, Google Maps said that I can drive car between Algeria and Morocco, which isn't the case[1]. I chose to reroute it to pass through Mauritania instead, however it suggested a non paved road (according to the satellite images) and it seems from my research that the area that Google maps suggested in Algeria is closed for foreigners. EDIT: OSM seems to suggest to go through Mali instead which indeed a better choice ( well road-wise, giving that I want to go through Mauritania). [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Maghreb_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Maghreb_Union [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algeria%E2%80%93Morocco_relations#The_borders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algeria%E2%80%93Morocco_relati...
- new2628 6y ago
  There are all these technical solutions, but the following may lead to a better experience and more fun trip overall: Make a rough plan in advance, then as you get there, start asking around and follow the advice of locals: truck drivers, gas station operators, hostel receptionists, etc.
bbarnett 6y ago
"It's shameful that we - as cartographers of the world - don't take enough interest to even know where they are. People are living and dying without appearing on any database." I know. Context. Context. There's nothing wrong with the above, with last sentence in context. But that last sentence makes me cringe, these days. The thought! The very thought that a human being may be anonymous, not counted, not known, not measured, watched, their every whim calculated and predicatively known, their essence stored for the ages. A human! Look, over there! A human, and.. and... it's not in our database! YOUR NAME, NOW! YOUR ID, NOW! Who are you? What is your precise address? Who were your parents? Where do you bank, work, live? Write all your friends down on this piece of paper, everything you ever read or do, NOW! In other contexts, in other paragraphs, that same sentence would be uttered by Gollum archetypes at Facebook, Google, the CIA/NSA/etc, well.. essentially, everywhere. The horror for them. Gollum, writhing at the thought, horror on his face: "People are living and dying without appearing on any database." How can this be?! HOW! Not tracked?! All those that wish to profit, or mistakenly believe knowing when we take a dump, will "make them safe". Watch. Watch, spy, sneak, slither, control. Get the precious, hold it close, data is the new gold, the new devil, the new evil. And they covet it. All those little gollums, writhing their hands, wanting their precious, their precious data. shudder
- mahathu 6y ago
  Exactly! I generally agree with the sentiment of the article, and see the importance for issues like healthcare, but that sentence seemed so wrong to me. "People are living and dying without appearing on any database." Isn't this, like, a good thing? Now on the other side, of course this is the definition of a first world problem, but not having a say in whether or not I actually want to appear in big techs databases isn't exactly ideal either!
  - jimmaswell 6y ago
    What big tech databases are you forced into just by living? Do you count banks and social security here?
    - 6y ago
punnerud 6y ago
Could come a long way with a https://www.kaggle.com https://www.kaggle.com challenge. Does OpenSteetmap have road quality? If yes, this could be used together with satellite photos for training
- TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
  Yes, you can mark road quality, or more particularly, road material and number of lanes.
JaceLightning 6y ago
I'd argue that no one appears on a map. Buildings and roads do.
- minikites 6y ago
  Where did the buildings and roads come from? Why do they serve the people they do and not different people? How does the land shape buildings, roads, and people? Maps are important tools for our understanding of the world.
- will_pseudonym 6y ago
  Neither do buildings and roads! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Map%E2%80%93territory_relation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Map%E2%80%93territory_relation
908087 6y ago
> People are living and dying without appearing on any database Oh, the horror! We must hunt them down and tag them immediately.

75 points by neversaydie 6y ago

I'm an OSM contributor and general map geek so I find it interesting to find unmapped areas. But the language used in this article seems unfortunate. For example: > People are living and dying without appearing on any database. What if they don't want to appear on any database? The motivations given later seem laudable, but it troubles me that it should be considered wrong simply to not appear on any database. Probably not what was meant, but it sounds like it. > It's shameful that we - as cartographers of the world - don't take enough interest to even know where they are. Shameful? Like, I should be ashamed of myself for mapping my local area, where I live and walk every day, rather than travelling to remotest Africa and mapping there? Again, I'm sure this isn't what was meant, but that is literally what it says. When reading further down the article it seems more sensible: giving the locals the tools and training needed to map the areas themselves. I'm just getting really sick of the ongoing narrative that says a) we should be ashamed of being born in a developed country and b) all other places on earth need to develop just like us.

andrewaylett 6y ago

The Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team: https://www.hotosm.org/ https://www.hotosm.org/ It's quite easy to contribute if you've any OpenStreetMap experience -- sign up for tasks on https://tasks.hotosm.org/ https://tasks.hotosm.org/ and you can see a list of open projects. There are often specific requests, like taking a tile of aerial photography and mapping out the roads and buildings.

sradman 6y ago
Humanitarian OpenSteetMap looks similar/complementary to Million Neighborhoods [1] mentioned today in another HN post [2]. Both articles seem to be timed with the opening of the 2020 State of the Map conference [3]. [1] https://millionneighborhoods.org/ https://millionneighborhoods.org/ [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23722133 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23722133 [3] https://2020.stateofthemap.org/ https://2020.stateofthemap.org/

chakerb 6y ago

> Google and Apple maps do not differentiate between a good road and a bad road - but that's so important They also don't differentiate some closed borders! I had an idea in mind to travel across the Arab Maghreb[0] (well excluding Libya for obvious reasons) after the COVID-19 situation start to get better. However, Google Maps said that I can drive car between Algeria and Morocco, which isn't the case[1]. I chose to reroute it to pass through Mauritania instead, however it suggested a non paved road (according to the satellite images) and it seems from my research that the area that Google maps suggested in Algeria is closed for foreigners. EDIT: OSM seems to suggest to go through Mali instead which indeed a better choice ( well road-wise, giving that I want to go through Mauritania). [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Maghreb_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Maghreb_Union [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algeria%E2%80%93Morocco_relations#The_borders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algeria%E2%80%93Morocco_relati...

new2628 6y ago
There are all these technical solutions, but the following may lead to a better experience and more fun trip overall: Make a rough plan in advance, then as you get there, start asking around and follow the advice of locals: truck drivers, gas station operators, hostel receptionists, etc.

bbarnett 6y ago

"It's shameful that we - as cartographers of the world - don't take enough interest to even know where they are. People are living and dying without appearing on any database." I know. Context. Context. There's nothing wrong with the above, with last sentence in context. But that last sentence makes me cringe, these days. The thought! The very thought that a human being may be anonymous, not counted, not known, not measured, watched, their every whim calculated and predicatively known, their essence stored for the ages. A human! Look, over there! A human, and.. and... it's not in our database! YOUR NAME, NOW! YOUR ID, NOW! Who are you? What is your precise address? Who were your parents? Where do you bank, work, live? Write all your friends down on this piece of paper, everything you ever read or do, NOW! In other contexts, in other paragraphs, that same sentence would be uttered by Gollum archetypes at Facebook, Google, the CIA/NSA/etc, well.. essentially, everywhere. The horror for them. Gollum, writhing at the thought, horror on his face: "People are living and dying without appearing on any database." How can this be?! HOW! Not tracked?! All those that wish to profit, or mistakenly believe knowing when we take a dump, will "make them safe". Watch. Watch, spy, sneak, slither, control. Get the precious, hold it close, data is the new gold, the new devil, the new evil. And they covet it. All those little gollums, writhing their hands, wanting their precious, their precious data. shudder

mahathu 6y ago
Exactly! I generally agree with the sentiment of the article, and see the importance for issues like healthcare, but that sentence seemed so wrong to me. "People are living and dying without appearing on any database." Isn't this, like, a good thing? Now on the other side, of course this is the definition of a first world problem, but not having a say in whether or not I actually want to appear in big techs databases isn't exactly ideal either!
- jimmaswell 6y ago
  What big tech databases are you forced into just by living? Do you count banks and social security here?
  - 6y ago

punnerud 6y ago

Could come a long way with a https://www.kaggle.com https://www.kaggle.com challenge. Does OpenSteetmap have road quality? If yes, this could be used together with satellite photos for training

TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
Yes, you can mark road quality, or more particularly, road material and number of lanes.

JaceLightning 6y ago

I'd argue that no one appears on a map. Buildings and roads do.

minikites 6y ago
Where did the buildings and roads come from? Why do they serve the people they do and not different people? How does the land shape buildings, roads, and people? Maps are important tools for our understanding of the world.
will_pseudonym 6y ago
Neither do buildings and roads! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Map%E2%80%93territory_relation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Map%E2%80%93territory_relation

908087 6y ago

> People are living and dying without appearing on any database Oh, the horror! We must hunt them down and tag them immediately.