5 ms·

How Apple's operating systems mistreat the user

18 points by superasn 6y ago

kirstenbirgit 6y ago
Sure, there's a lot of things wrong with Apple's operating systems. I would love for them to be more open, and the ability to install non-signed apps on my iPhone (although they've added all the features I used to jailbreak for.) But what's with the weird tone? iMonsters? 10 year old news articles? And why's it so bad that other applications can do malicious stuff on your computer? Shouldn't the author be happy that there's still enough openness on the Mac for this to occur? Isn't that what they want?
hyko 6y ago
“The Dropbox app for Macintosh...” seems like a very lame overreach.
- reallydontask 6y ago
  The way you mention this, it makes it sound as if this is the worst that Apple does. Another way of looking at it, is that if it's allowed for dropbox it could be allowed for other apps. End of the day it's your decision whether you want to still use an Apple device, assuming you have the choice, after knowing the potential problems with it.
  - pfranz 6y ago
    But this wasn't "allowed" or endorsed by Apple. It was a third-party company doing something underhanded. Is there some reason Dropbox would be more trustworthy on Linux? I think the "lame overreach" hurts the credibility of the argument--even if it has merit.
    - systemvoltage 6y ago
      Exactly. Does Linux not have a crap piece of software sending data to Amazon servers? Oh right. Ubuntu.
    - cmsj 6y ago
      Apple actually worked against Dropbox a few times in recent years, and added a bunch of APIs for annotating files in Finder, to stop Dropbox from monkeypatching it. More recently Dropbox has started using a kernel extension to support its SmartSync feature, which will soon be stymied, as Apple makes it more convoluted to load third party kexts in Big Sur.
  - hyko 6y ago
    It’s a crazy argument from them, considering their licensing allows anyone to do anything they like with a system apart from hide the resulting source code. Policing third parties like Dropbox is actually a strength of a proprietary system, so why bring it up at all? I could make the claim that GNU software can get you killed, because military organisations build applications on top of it. This is true, but it hardly seems a fair point to make in assessing something like GNU/Linux. There are legitimate weaknesses and user hostile designs in Apple operating systems, but Dropbox is not one of them. Edited to add: anyone who remotely cares about security would not allow Dropbox anywhere near their systems, but that’s another discussion!
  - guiltygods 6y ago
    "Another way of looking at it, is that if it's allowed for dropbox it could be allowed for other apps." And the same people will cry censorship if Apple tries to enforce anything on Dropbox.
rich_sasha 6y ago
...and yet, how popular are Linux phones and laptops compared to Apple? The list is of course right (perhaps up to fine details) but misses the point. Apple products, and same for Android, are utterly usable without a degree in Linuxology. You don't shake in trepidation whenever you do an upgrade. You also don't just install random stuff from enormous Git repos that cannot possibly be scrutinised for security details. You don't get core dumps just because you selected an exotic option in config. I like Linux, but I don't have 10 hrs/week just to keep it running. It's just not an option, and Apple products will do. Having been forced to use Microsoft products again recently, I think the analogy doesn't extend to Windows though. I'd take Linux products over MS any time. Windows is awful.
- j88439h84 6y ago
  > ...and yet, how popular are Linux phones and laptops compared to Apple? Linux phones are about 3x more popular. https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/worldwide https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/worldwide
  - new_realist 6y ago
    Android isn’t really Linux, in that the commodity open source kernel is wrapped by proprietary value added software maintained by an army of highly paid professionals. You could swap out the kernel and no user would notice, or care.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - j88439h84 6y ago
      > Android isn’t really Linux, in that the commodity open source kernel is wrapped by proprietary value added software maintained by an army of highly paid professionals. Isn't that true for all popular distros?
    - fomine3 6y ago
      Android IS an Linux definitely but not GNU/Linux.
kotutku 6y ago
"Apple plans to require that all application software for MacOS be approved by Apple first." I'm ready to leave MacOS if this becomes reality (no way to install apps outside of Apple Store). So so far it's pretty easy to install custom apps and grand them root permissions.
- cmsj 6y ago
  There's no "if", notarization has already happened. As of a few months ago, macOS Catalina warns users if an app hasn't been notarized. It's the latest step in a multi-year effort to make macOS a little less of a wild-west of software, but as with all the previous steps, it's pretty trivial for knowledgeable users to override - you just right click on an app and choose "Open" and you can bypass the signature/notarization checks.
new_realist 6y ago
Please, no more propaganda from GNU. It’s biased and misleading. I get the feeling that they had the budget to buy fake news on Facebook, they would jump at the chance. They’re the Breitbart of fundamentalist software proselytism.
- systemvoltage 6y ago
  Instead of being humble, they’re seeing the world as their way or the highway. It’s incredibly naive, arrogant and inconsiderate.
  - cmsj 6y ago
    I'm not sure why y'all are surprised by this, it's been the GNU/FSF schtick for decades and it's not going to change ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
pfranz 6y ago
> In MacOS and iOS, the procedure for converting images from the Photos format[1] to a free format is so tedious and time-consuming that users just give up if they have a lot of them. [1] https://support.apple.com/guide/photos/export-photos-videos-and-slideshows-pht6e157c5f/mac https://support.apple.com/guide/photos/export-photos-videos-... This (and a bunch of others) seems poorly sourced. It looks like Photos.app behaves the same as Aperture.app and many others. Your Library is a special folder. Your original photos are kept in whatever format they were originally taken in and all organizationational and library metadata are in a series of sqlite databases that are logically organized. I would be happy to see an open source photo library app structured the same way. If you want original files, copy them out. If you want changes or metadata, dig through the databases. If you want "baked out" images, bulk export from Photos.app. Modern iPhones will capture HEIF and HEVC photo and video, but it's not like they're secret or proprietary file formats. Apple switched away from JPEG and MOV because those formats are less efficient and cannot support modern features--much better than CR2/NEF raw formats other camera makers use.
- cmsj 6y ago
  HEIF/HEVC aren't completely open formats though, AFAIR. I'm pretty sure there's some kind of patent royalty involved in some things people might want to do with them. That alone makes them incompatible with GNU's ideals, such as they are.
  - pfranz 6y ago
    That's true, but that's an argument about the iPhone and not Photos. On the iPhone, there's literally a switch to instead save as jpg/h.264...which do have their own patent problems (there have been various successful patent collections on jpeg and h.264 is subject to the same MPEG LA group HEVC is).
- mceachen 6y ago
  > I would be happy to see an open source photo library app structured the same way. PhotoStructure libraries are set up this way, except you can choose to either keep all your assets where they were, or import them into a single, deduplicated directory structure. The SQLite database schema is commented and straightforward, and migrations between versions are humanly readable (if you want to see exactly how the schema evolves). I've open-sourced much of the code, but know that I'm hoping it can pay for rent some day soon. The current beta release is free in exchange for feedback. The next version will have both free and paid tiers. > ... much better than CR2/NEF raw formats other camera makers use. HEIV/HEIC typically contains one or more lossy, compressed images, much like JPEG. CR2, NEF, ARW, ORF and DNG formats are all "raw" lossless formats that directly store sensor data along with metadata. They're for very different use cases.

18 points by superasn 6y ago

Sure, there's a lot of things wrong with Apple's operating systems. I would love for them to be more open, and the ability to install non-signed apps on my iPhone (although they've added all the features I used to jailbreak for.) But what's with the weird tone? iMonsters? 10 year old news articles? And why's it so bad that other applications can do malicious stuff on your computer? Shouldn't the author be happy that there's still enough openness on the Mac for this to occur? Isn't that what they want?

hyko 6y ago

“The Dropbox app for Macintosh...” seems like a very lame overreach.

reallydontask 6y ago
The way you mention this, it makes it sound as if this is the worst that Apple does. Another way of looking at it, is that if it's allowed for dropbox it could be allowed for other apps. End of the day it's your decision whether you want to still use an Apple device, assuming you have the choice, after knowing the potential problems with it.
- pfranz 6y ago
  But this wasn't "allowed" or endorsed by Apple. It was a third-party company doing something underhanded. Is there some reason Dropbox would be more trustworthy on Linux? I think the "lame overreach" hurts the credibility of the argument--even if it has merit.
  - systemvoltage 6y ago
    Exactly. Does Linux not have a crap piece of software sending data to Amazon servers? Oh right. Ubuntu.
  - cmsj 6y ago
    Apple actually worked against Dropbox a few times in recent years, and added a bunch of APIs for annotating files in Finder, to stop Dropbox from monkeypatching it. More recently Dropbox has started using a kernel extension to support its SmartSync feature, which will soon be stymied, as Apple makes it more convoluted to load third party kexts in Big Sur.
- hyko 6y ago
  It’s a crazy argument from them, considering their licensing allows anyone to do anything they like with a system apart from hide the resulting source code. Policing third parties like Dropbox is actually a strength of a proprietary system, so why bring it up at all? I could make the claim that GNU software can get you killed, because military organisations build applications on top of it. This is true, but it hardly seems a fair point to make in assessing something like GNU/Linux. There are legitimate weaknesses and user hostile designs in Apple operating systems, but Dropbox is not one of them. Edited to add: anyone who remotely cares about security would not allow Dropbox anywhere near their systems, but that’s another discussion!
- guiltygods 6y ago
  "Another way of looking at it, is that if it's allowed for dropbox it could be allowed for other apps." And the same people will cry censorship if Apple tries to enforce anything on Dropbox.

rich_sasha 6y ago

...and yet, how popular are Linux phones and laptops compared to Apple? The list is of course right (perhaps up to fine details) but misses the point. Apple products, and same for Android, are utterly usable without a degree in Linuxology. You don't shake in trepidation whenever you do an upgrade. You also don't just install random stuff from enormous Git repos that cannot possibly be scrutinised for security details. You don't get core dumps just because you selected an exotic option in config. I like Linux, but I don't have 10 hrs/week just to keep it running. It's just not an option, and Apple products will do. Having been forced to use Microsoft products again recently, I think the analogy doesn't extend to Windows though. I'd take Linux products over MS any time. Windows is awful.

j88439h84 6y ago
> ...and yet, how popular are Linux phones and laptops compared to Apple? Linux phones are about 3x more popular. https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/worldwide https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/worldwide
- new_realist 6y ago
  Android isn’t really Linux, in that the commodity open source kernel is wrapped by proprietary value added software maintained by an army of highly paid professionals. You could swap out the kernel and no user would notice, or care.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - j88439h84 6y ago
    > Android isn’t really Linux, in that the commodity open source kernel is wrapped by proprietary value added software maintained by an army of highly paid professionals. Isn't that true for all popular distros?
  - fomine3 6y ago
    Android IS an Linux definitely but not GNU/Linux.

kotutku 6y ago

"Apple plans to require that all application software for MacOS be approved by Apple first." I'm ready to leave MacOS if this becomes reality (no way to install apps outside of Apple Store). So so far it's pretty easy to install custom apps and grand them root permissions.

cmsj 6y ago
There's no "if", notarization has already happened. As of a few months ago, macOS Catalina warns users if an app hasn't been notarized. It's the latest step in a multi-year effort to make macOS a little less of a wild-west of software, but as with all the previous steps, it's pretty trivial for knowledgeable users to override - you just right click on an app and choose "Open" and you can bypass the signature/notarization checks.

new_realist 6y ago

Please, no more propaganda from GNU. It’s biased and misleading. I get the feeling that they had the budget to buy fake news on Facebook, they would jump at the chance. They’re the Breitbart of fundamentalist software proselytism.

systemvoltage 6y ago
Instead of being humble, they’re seeing the world as their way or the highway. It’s incredibly naive, arrogant and inconsiderate.
- cmsj 6y ago
  I'm not sure why y'all are surprised by this, it's been the GNU/FSF schtick for decades and it's not going to change ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

pfranz 6y ago

> In MacOS and iOS, the procedure for converting images from the Photos format[1] to a free format is so tedious and time-consuming that users just give up if they have a lot of them. [1] https://support.apple.com/guide/photos/export-photos-videos-and-slideshows-pht6e157c5f/mac https://support.apple.com/guide/photos/export-photos-videos-... This (and a bunch of others) seems poorly sourced. It looks like Photos.app behaves the same as Aperture.app and many others. Your Library is a special folder. Your original photos are kept in whatever format they were originally taken in and all organizationational and library metadata are in a series of sqlite databases that are logically organized. I would be happy to see an open source photo library app structured the same way. If you want original files, copy them out. If you want changes or metadata, dig through the databases. If you want "baked out" images, bulk export from Photos.app. Modern iPhones will capture HEIF and HEVC photo and video, but it's not like they're secret or proprietary file formats. Apple switched away from JPEG and MOV because those formats are less efficient and cannot support modern features--much better than CR2/NEF raw formats other camera makers use.

cmsj 6y ago
HEIF/HEVC aren't completely open formats though, AFAIR. I'm pretty sure there's some kind of patent royalty involved in some things people might want to do with them. That alone makes them incompatible with GNU's ideals, such as they are.
- pfranz 6y ago
  That's true, but that's an argument about the iPhone and not Photos. On the iPhone, there's literally a switch to instead save as jpg/h.264...which do have their own patent problems (there have been various successful patent collections on jpeg and h.264 is subject to the same MPEG LA group HEVC is).
mceachen 6y ago
> I would be happy to see an open source photo library app structured the same way. PhotoStructure libraries are set up this way, except you can choose to either keep all your assets where they were, or import them into a single, deduplicated directory structure. The SQLite database schema is commented and straightforward, and migrations between versions are humanly readable (if you want to see exactly how the schema evolves). I've open-sourced much of the code, but know that I'm hoping it can pay for rent some day soon. The current beta release is free in exchange for feedback. The next version will have both free and paid tiers. > ... much better than CR2/NEF raw formats other camera makers use. HEIV/HEIC typically contains one or more lossy, compressed images, much like JPEG. CR2, NEF, ARW, ORF and DNG formats are all "raw" lossless formats that directly store sensor data along with metadata. They're for very different use cases.