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We were trying to recruit via LinkedIn for our startup but soon realized what a shitty business model LinkedIn has. We had to pay around ~5,00EUR for each and

We were trying to recruit via LinkedIn for our startup but soon realized what a shitty business model LinkedIn has. We had to pay around ~5,00EUR for each and every click on "Apply" to our job posting, which doesn't mean they even filled out the form. And now, where LinkedIn is full of Indian scammers (not meant in a racist way, but it is definitely perceived that way) we had costs for a "Local Area" limited job posting for hundreds of people from India because they seem to use LinkedIn via proxy. When we had costs of over 2800EUR for an ad that was displayed less than 8 days, where literally 100% of people were not even from Europe, we decided to fuck this shit and move on to other platforms. LinkedIn is absolutely useless. Use University job sites, local meetups (during non COVID times, of course), or open source projects to identify devs that actually care about code. Also, stackoverflow talents is useless. Their "special startup package" of getting access to the platform for 2500EUR is only for one user, limited per email and phone number, not allowed to login in parallel. Every job posting costs additional 400EUR even if nobody applies for it. You get nothing, as over 90% of people we have actively talked to are not even looking for a job and never clicked that on any stackexchange platform. I didn't realize how fucked recruiting is. Srsly, somebody needs to fix this.

flir 6y ago
> Srsly, somebody needs to fix this I've lost count of the number of devs I've spoken to, over multiple decades, who are convinced recruitment is ripe for disruption. I'm sure everyone else has the same experience. And yet, recruitment's still here, more or less unchanged. At this point I'm pretty sure recruitment has always been terrible, and will always be terrible. There's some perverse incentive buried deep in the process that can't be shaken out. Or something.
- brtkdotse 6y ago
  > And yet, recruitment's still here, more or less unchanged. At this point I'm pretty sure recruitment has always been terrible, and will always be terrible. There's some perverse incentive buried deep in the process that can't be shaken out. Or something. It probably won’t be solved by tech folk as it’s a squishy people problem that’s hard to quantify (case in point: threads on HN bemoaning robotic HR processes att FAANG)
  - toyg 6y ago
    > it’s a squishy people problem that’s hard to quantify And where incentives to game the process are just too high for everyone involved. Ref standard practices like CV inflation, lying about what the role will really be, hiding salary rates from both sides, manipulating entitlements, etc etc. These problems are as old as humanity and I don't think you can really fix them with code.
- sleavey 6y ago
  Same problems with the private home rental market. If someone can figure out how to match good tenants with good landlords in a way that is hard to scam and respects privacy, they would make a lot of money.
  - jackson1442 6y ago
    It would be nice to have this with payments integrated or something, but the trust aspect is a lot harder to achieve. With a service like Uber/Lyft, you have riders and drivers building a reputation over time as they can make many rides over the course of their use, each one a rateable experience for both parties. For "BetterLandlord," the _ideal_ tenant is one that sticks with one landlord longer. More use of the platform intrinsically leads to a lower incentive to use it. Though I guess you could earn "trust points" for making payments on time, and landlords for fixing maintenance issues submitted within the app in a reasonable amount of time, there's a lot of other factors that count for a "good" tenant or landlord.
  - viach 6y ago
    This assumes there is a lot of good players, tenants and landlords and they are just waiting for a good app which will let them find each other finally. From my experience, this market is conflict driven, there is no such thing as good landlord and good tenant.
    - durnygbur 6y ago
      I'm a professional earning 1.5-2.5 the average national salary. I'm moving abroad to a new city and ready to pay 20-30% of my net salary on rent. I'm paying the rent and media regularly on time and the deposit on move in. I demand apartment in the price range 5-15 EUR/m^2 per month, in comfortable standard, and the full deposit back on move out. What invalidates me as a good tenant? Then given my requirements above, each time dealing with rental market in any even marginally desirable city in EU, it's like being hit by a train driving at full speed... Sure it's better to rent short term to some banana youngsters from Germany, Scandinavia or other rich countries, who come over to get wasted and get free sex, then to wreck the place. Yet it's me - a person from post-Communist country, so perceived as poor, who have a bad reputation.
- wyclif 6y ago
  Pretty much share that sense of despair and assessment of the industry. When Aline Lerner started doing things, I was really behind her, hoping she would succeed in changing the game. But I think you're right that it's just a lot harder than even the smartest people realise.
brtkdotse 6y ago
Same experience here. Wanted to expand my business and posted a LinkedIn job ad. After a week I had spent 200€ and received a bunch of people outside of Stockholm, which I specified as the location. I also received a few job applications from school teachers, car salesmen and county clerks - for a senior dev position.
- rumanator 6y ago
  > I also received a few job applications from school teachers, car salesmen and county clerks - for a senior dev position. That's not a LinkedIn problem, it's a "I've posted an attractive job ad" problem.
  - st1ck 6y ago
    If LinkedIn charges per application regardless of job fit, it's LinkedIn problem.
StreamBright 6y ago
Sounds like a great opportunity to build a website for job seekers and companies with a more rational business model.
- csunbird 6y ago
  I used honeypot.io before, which was a nice experience for someone seeking jobs.
OJFord 6y ago
> full of Indian scammers (not meant in a racist way, but it is definitely perceived that way) (I'm not Indian but) the non-racist way to say that is 'full of scammers', since the scammers' nationality has nothing to do with your distaste for their behaviour.
- wyclif 6y ago
  No, that's still not quite right. While it removes considerations of race from the comment, it also removes context since it makes it sound as if the scamming is equally distributed globally when everyone knows it isn't.
  - deadlocked 6y ago
    A) If you're going to throw out blanket statements about "Indian scammers" then you need to do a little better than "everyone knows". B) Removing the context ("Indian") from OPs post does absolutely nothing to diminish your understanding of the problem (too many scammers dirtying the pool).
- sgc 6y ago
  If all your scammers are from one geographical location halfway across the world, it is fine to refer to it and you shouldn't be shamed for naming it. Lest we police ourselves into ignorance.
  - OJFord 6y ago
    And if all the immigrants you don't like are from the same place?
    - dkarbayev 6y ago
      That’s completely different, because it’s based on your personal opinion/attitude towards certain people. On the other hand, calling scammers who they are is not subjective (unless you’re falsely accusing someone).
botwriter 6y ago
To be fair most of the requests I've had have been from Chinese nationals trying to spearphish me.

flir 6y ago

> Srsly, somebody needs to fix this I've lost count of the number of devs I've spoken to, over multiple decades, who are convinced recruitment is ripe for disruption. I'm sure everyone else has the same experience. And yet, recruitment's still here, more or less unchanged. At this point I'm pretty sure recruitment has always been terrible, and will always be terrible. There's some perverse incentive buried deep in the process that can't be shaken out. Or something.

brtkdotse 6y ago
> And yet, recruitment's still here, more or less unchanged. At this point I'm pretty sure recruitment has always been terrible, and will always be terrible. There's some perverse incentive buried deep in the process that can't be shaken out. Or something. It probably won’t be solved by tech folk as it’s a squishy people problem that’s hard to quantify (case in point: threads on HN bemoaning robotic HR processes att FAANG)
- toyg 6y ago
  > it’s a squishy people problem that’s hard to quantify And where incentives to game the process are just too high for everyone involved. Ref standard practices like CV inflation, lying about what the role will really be, hiding salary rates from both sides, manipulating entitlements, etc etc. These problems are as old as humanity and I don't think you can really fix them with code.
sleavey 6y ago
Same problems with the private home rental market. If someone can figure out how to match good tenants with good landlords in a way that is hard to scam and respects privacy, they would make a lot of money.
- jackson1442 6y ago
  It would be nice to have this with payments integrated or something, but the trust aspect is a lot harder to achieve. With a service like Uber/Lyft, you have riders and drivers building a reputation over time as they can make many rides over the course of their use, each one a rateable experience for both parties. For "BetterLandlord," the _ideal_ tenant is one that sticks with one landlord longer. More use of the platform intrinsically leads to a lower incentive to use it. Though I guess you could earn "trust points" for making payments on time, and landlords for fixing maintenance issues submitted within the app in a reasonable amount of time, there's a lot of other factors that count for a "good" tenant or landlord.
- viach 6y ago
  This assumes there is a lot of good players, tenants and landlords and they are just waiting for a good app which will let them find each other finally. From my experience, this market is conflict driven, there is no such thing as good landlord and good tenant.
  - durnygbur 6y ago
    I'm a professional earning 1.5-2.5 the average national salary. I'm moving abroad to a new city and ready to pay 20-30% of my net salary on rent. I'm paying the rent and media regularly on time and the deposit on move in. I demand apartment in the price range 5-15 EUR/m^2 per month, in comfortable standard, and the full deposit back on move out. What invalidates me as a good tenant? Then given my requirements above, each time dealing with rental market in any even marginally desirable city in EU, it's like being hit by a train driving at full speed... Sure it's better to rent short term to some banana youngsters from Germany, Scandinavia or other rich countries, who come over to get wasted and get free sex, then to wreck the place. Yet it's me - a person from post-Communist country, so perceived as poor, who have a bad reputation.
wyclif 6y ago
Pretty much share that sense of despair and assessment of the industry. When Aline Lerner started doing things, I was really behind her, hoping she would succeed in changing the game. But I think you're right that it's just a lot harder than even the smartest people realise.

brtkdotse 6y ago

Same experience here. Wanted to expand my business and posted a LinkedIn job ad. After a week I had spent 200€ and received a bunch of people outside of Stockholm, which I specified as the location. I also received a few job applications from school teachers, car salesmen and county clerks - for a senior dev position.

rumanator 6y ago
> I also received a few job applications from school teachers, car salesmen and county clerks - for a senior dev position. That's not a LinkedIn problem, it's a "I've posted an attractive job ad" problem.
- st1ck 6y ago
  If LinkedIn charges per application regardless of job fit, it's LinkedIn problem.

StreamBright 6y ago

Sounds like a great opportunity to build a website for job seekers and companies with a more rational business model.

csunbird 6y ago
I used honeypot.io before, which was a nice experience for someone seeking jobs.

OJFord 6y ago

> full of Indian scammers (not meant in a racist way, but it is definitely perceived that way) (I'm not Indian but) the non-racist way to say that is 'full of scammers', since the scammers' nationality has nothing to do with your distaste for their behaviour.

wyclif 6y ago
No, that's still not quite right. While it removes considerations of race from the comment, it also removes context since it makes it sound as if the scamming is equally distributed globally when everyone knows it isn't.
- deadlocked 6y ago
  A) If you're going to throw out blanket statements about "Indian scammers" then you need to do a little better than "everyone knows". B) Removing the context ("Indian") from OPs post does absolutely nothing to diminish your understanding of the problem (too many scammers dirtying the pool).
sgc 6y ago
If all your scammers are from one geographical location halfway across the world, it is fine to refer to it and you shouldn't be shamed for naming it. Lest we police ourselves into ignorance.
- OJFord 6y ago
  And if all the immigrants you don't like are from the same place?
  - dkarbayev 6y ago
    That’s completely different, because it’s based on your personal opinion/attitude towards certain people. On the other hand, calling scammers who they are is not subjective (unless you’re falsely accusing someone).

botwriter 6y ago

To be fair most of the requests I've had have been from Chinese nationals trying to spearphish me.