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> Or maybe it’s an adjacent possible thing and the ancient world was far more connected by trade than we often think. Custard Apples, which are native to Centr

> Or maybe it’s an adjacent possible thing and the ancient world was far more connected by trade than we often think. Custard Apples, which are native to Central America, were thought to have been introduced to India in the 1500's through Portuguese contact. A few years ago, they found a custard apple seed carbon dated to 1800 BC at an archaeological site in Northern India [1]. Researchers still have no idea how it got there. [1] https://www.academia.edu/25089948/Custard-Apple_existed_in_India_even_before_Discovery_of_America_by_Columbus https://www.academia.edu/25089948/Custard-Apple_existed_in_I...

Swizec 6y ago
> were thought to have been introduced to India in the 1500's through Portuguese contact Funny how everything was introduced by us white european folk to the rest of the world. I wonder who wrote that version of history. How much stuff do you think happened before we got there to see it happening and write about it for our branch of global science? We know for example that China had massive 14 mast ships and global-ish trade back when Europe was barely doing 3 masts as state of the art. And we know that Ancient Egypt traded as far as India
- KhoomeiK 6y ago
  Haha yeah, totally. Modern Western culture as we know it is only about 500 years old, though it arguably takes influences from the Greeks and Romans back another 2500 years. Even 500 BC though isn't that old in the grand scale of things. It's interesting how we refer to everything before ~500 AD as "ancient" when civilization really began around 3000 BC—that is to say, the "ancient" period is more than double the length of the post-ancient. It's mindblowing to think what could've happened in those entire centuries during which we just don't have records of certain areas. Partly the reason why I'm super interested in archaeogenetics, revealing the tremendous amount of history locked away in our very own DNA.
  - thaumasiotes 6y ago
    > Modern Western culture as we know it is only about 500 years old, though it arguably takes influences from the Greeks and Romans back another 2500 years. That would be a difficult argument to make; classical Greece only goes back to about the eighth century BC. Mycenaean Greece goes much further back, but we can't observe most of the cultural continuity (though obviously there was a decent amount of it), because between Mycenaean Greece and classical Greece there was the Greek Dark Age of about 400 years when they forgot how to read and write. A cultural legacy of 2500 years total is a much fairer estimate than one of 3000 years. As you note, though, the legacy of the classical world was itself interrupted and then purposefully reimported into Renaissance Europe. This is rather different from how, in the 4th century AD, there were still priests of the old religion in Babylon, reading tablets written thousands of years before them thanks to a historical tradition that had, at that point, never been interrupted. Something I found charming from the wikipedia article on Sargon the Great is that the Babylonian king Nabonidus (6th century BC, "ancient" by any modern standard) sponsored archaeological research into his life. And well he might, since Sargon preceded Nabonidus by about 1800 years. But you just don't think about one ancient king supporting archaeology concerning another ancient king. Ancient is ancient, right?
    - KhoomeiK 6y ago
      Yup, you're totally right, I misspoke—I meant to say that the furthest you can trace back Western history is 2500 years [total] back to the Greek "golden age" ~500BC. > Something I found charming from the wikipedia article on Sargon the Great is that the Babylonian king Nabonidus (6th century BC, "ancient" by any modern standard) sponsored archaeological research into his life. Wow, never knew about this. I really want a term to come into the vernacular to describe history before ~800BC, because things really were completely different across Eurasia. In the Mediterranean and Middle East it was the revival of civilization after the Bronze Age collapse, in India it was the beginning of the Upanishadic era, and in China it was the beginning of the Spring and Autumn period. This [1] is sort of relevant. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axial_Age https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axial_Age
      - thaumasiotes 6y ago
  - toohotatopic 6y ago
    >ancient," from Vulgar Latin *anteanus, literally "from before," [1] I guess ancient is used to mean before 500BC because it has always meant that. It's a Roman word used by them to reference the time before them. As long as we use that word we already accept their point of view. [1] https://www.etymonline.com/word/ancient https://www.etymonline.com/word/ancient
    - KhoomeiK 6y ago
      Ancient usually refers to the period before 500 AD (not BC) as indicated in my original comment. 500 AD is roughly the collapse of the Western Roman Empire, but definitely not the marker for before the Romans. It'd be nice if that explained it though.
- andrepd 6y ago
  Well we also state that the indigenous populations introduced, say, potatoes to Europe. No need to push an innocuous observation onto a racial framework.
- ericd 6y ago
  14 masts? That seems... excessive. Most I can find a reference of is 4, the "Treasure Ships".
  - avhon1 6y ago
    "the treasure fleet consisted of several distinct classes of ships: - "Treasure ships" (宝船, Bǎo Chuán) nine-masted, 44.4 by 18 zhang, about 127 metres (417 feet) long and 52 metres (171 feet) wide [...]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_treasure_ship#Sanbao_Taijian_Xia_Xiyang_Ji_Tongsu_Yanyi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_treasure_ship#Sanbao_T...
    - ericd 6y ago
      Oh wow, one on that list has 9 masts! That’s incredible.
- QuesnayJr 6y ago
  It's demonstrably true that there was a significant period of introduction of new foodstuffs from the Americas into Eurasia in the wake of Columbus, in a phenomenon known as the Columbian Exchange: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbian_exchange https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbian_exchange. Since custard apples are native to Central America, it's the natural hypothesis.
- LudwigNagasena 6y ago
  We also know that China considered itself "All under Heaven" and that in Ancient Egypt Pharaohs were thought to maintain the cosmic order. I understand that hating themselves is a favorite pastime of upper-middle class white Americans, but there is no reason to denigrate all white people for what was a very common attitude among all cultures.
  - Swizec 6y ago
    Oh I know everyone does it. I’m just pointing out the silliness of being surprised when it turns out history didn’t start with us. No denigration intended
sammalloy 6y ago
> A few years ago, they found a custard apple seed carbon dated to 1800 BC at an archaeological site in Northern India [1]. Researchers still have no idea how it got there. Seed dispersal has been extensively studied, so I’m confused by this paper. I took a glance at it and noticed it said nothing about birds or water. In the case of Hawaii, one of the most isolated archipelagos in the world, many plants arrived by water and birds. Wild strawberries in Hawaii, for example, have been traced to the Pacific Northwest, and are assumed to have started from the passing digestive tract of birds flying over the volcanoes from that direction. More recent research has given rise to a new theory of seed dispersal mutualism between plants and animals, since seeds passing though bird guts have an almost 400% increase in survival, due to various survival benefits arising from their storage in the digestive tract.
- grenoire 6y ago
  Agreed; I don't think that constitutes a highly significant discovery about the history of trade unless you found what is a hand- or pouchful of seeds together.

Swizec 6y ago

> were thought to have been introduced to India in the 1500's through Portuguese contact Funny how everything was introduced by us white european folk to the rest of the world. I wonder who wrote that version of history. How much stuff do you think happened before we got there to see it happening and write about it for our branch of global science? We know for example that China had massive 14 mast ships and global-ish trade back when Europe was barely doing 3 masts as state of the art. And we know that Ancient Egypt traded as far as India

KhoomeiK 6y ago
Haha yeah, totally. Modern Western culture as we know it is only about 500 years old, though it arguably takes influences from the Greeks and Romans back another 2500 years. Even 500 BC though isn't that old in the grand scale of things. It's interesting how we refer to everything before ~500 AD as "ancient" when civilization really began around 3000 BC—that is to say, the "ancient" period is more than double the length of the post-ancient. It's mindblowing to think what could've happened in those entire centuries during which we just don't have records of certain areas. Partly the reason why I'm super interested in archaeogenetics, revealing the tremendous amount of history locked away in our very own DNA.
- thaumasiotes 6y ago
  > Modern Western culture as we know it is only about 500 years old, though it arguably takes influences from the Greeks and Romans back another 2500 years. That would be a difficult argument to make; classical Greece only goes back to about the eighth century BC. Mycenaean Greece goes much further back, but we can't observe most of the cultural continuity (though obviously there was a decent amount of it), because between Mycenaean Greece and classical Greece there was the Greek Dark Age of about 400 years when they forgot how to read and write. A cultural legacy of 2500 years total is a much fairer estimate than one of 3000 years. As you note, though, the legacy of the classical world was itself interrupted and then purposefully reimported into Renaissance Europe. This is rather different from how, in the 4th century AD, there were still priests of the old religion in Babylon, reading tablets written thousands of years before them thanks to a historical tradition that had, at that point, never been interrupted. Something I found charming from the wikipedia article on Sargon the Great is that the Babylonian king Nabonidus (6th century BC, "ancient" by any modern standard) sponsored archaeological research into his life. And well he might, since Sargon preceded Nabonidus by about 1800 years. But you just don't think about one ancient king supporting archaeology concerning another ancient king. Ancient is ancient, right?
  - KhoomeiK 6y ago
    Yup, you're totally right, I misspoke—I meant to say that the furthest you can trace back Western history is 2500 years [total] back to the Greek "golden age" ~500BC. > Something I found charming from the wikipedia article on Sargon the Great is that the Babylonian king Nabonidus (6th century BC, "ancient" by any modern standard) sponsored archaeological research into his life. Wow, never knew about this. I really want a term to come into the vernacular to describe history before ~800BC, because things really were completely different across Eurasia. In the Mediterranean and Middle East it was the revival of civilization after the Bronze Age collapse, in India it was the beginning of the Upanishadic era, and in China it was the beginning of the Spring and Autumn period. This [1] is sort of relevant. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axial_Age https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axial_Age
    - thaumasiotes 6y ago
- toohotatopic 6y ago
  >ancient," from Vulgar Latin *anteanus, literally "from before," [1] I guess ancient is used to mean before 500BC because it has always meant that. It's a Roman word used by them to reference the time before them. As long as we use that word we already accept their point of view. [1] https://www.etymonline.com/word/ancient https://www.etymonline.com/word/ancient
  - KhoomeiK 6y ago
    Ancient usually refers to the period before 500 AD (not BC) as indicated in my original comment. 500 AD is roughly the collapse of the Western Roman Empire, but definitely not the marker for before the Romans. It'd be nice if that explained it though.
andrepd 6y ago
Well we also state that the indigenous populations introduced, say, potatoes to Europe. No need to push an innocuous observation onto a racial framework.
ericd 6y ago
14 masts? That seems... excessive. Most I can find a reference of is 4, the "Treasure Ships".
- avhon1 6y ago
  "the treasure fleet consisted of several distinct classes of ships: - "Treasure ships" (宝船, Bǎo Chuán) nine-masted, 44.4 by 18 zhang, about 127 metres (417 feet) long and 52 metres (171 feet) wide [...]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_treasure_ship#Sanbao_Taijian_Xia_Xiyang_Ji_Tongsu_Yanyi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_treasure_ship#Sanbao_T...
  - ericd 6y ago
    Oh wow, one on that list has 9 masts! That’s incredible.
QuesnayJr 6y ago
It's demonstrably true that there was a significant period of introduction of new foodstuffs from the Americas into Eurasia in the wake of Columbus, in a phenomenon known as the Columbian Exchange: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbian_exchange https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbian_exchange. Since custard apples are native to Central America, it's the natural hypothesis.
LudwigNagasena 6y ago
We also know that China considered itself "All under Heaven" and that in Ancient Egypt Pharaohs were thought to maintain the cosmic order. I understand that hating themselves is a favorite pastime of upper-middle class white Americans, but there is no reason to denigrate all white people for what was a very common attitude among all cultures.
- Swizec 6y ago
  Oh I know everyone does it. I’m just pointing out the silliness of being surprised when it turns out history didn’t start with us. No denigration intended

sammalloy 6y ago

> A few years ago, they found a custard apple seed carbon dated to 1800 BC at an archaeological site in Northern India [1]. Researchers still have no idea how it got there. Seed dispersal has been extensively studied, so I’m confused by this paper. I took a glance at it and noticed it said nothing about birds or water. In the case of Hawaii, one of the most isolated archipelagos in the world, many plants arrived by water and birds. Wild strawberries in Hawaii, for example, have been traced to the Pacific Northwest, and are assumed to have started from the passing digestive tract of birds flying over the volcanoes from that direction. More recent research has given rise to a new theory of seed dispersal mutualism between plants and animals, since seeds passing though bird guts have an almost 400% increase in survival, due to various survival benefits arising from their storage in the digestive tract.

grenoire 6y ago
Agreed; I don't think that constitutes a highly significant discovery about the history of trade unless you found what is a hand- or pouchful of seeds together.