5 ms·

Maybe they had innocent motives, or maybe they didn't. It's irrelevant. Attempting to normalize a symbol that for millions of people stands for brutality, terr

by Lendal 6y ago

Maybe they had innocent motives, or maybe they didn't. It's irrelevant. Attempting to normalize a symbol that for millions of people stands for brutality, terrorism and oppression, doesn't change its nature for that population of people. Now you might say that it doesn't matter how those people feel. They're not us. They have their culture and we have ours. Well, what if 10 years down the road there was a new hit show in the Arab world where the characters were all very charismatic, wholesome and diverse, but their car had an ISIS flag on it?

ars 6y ago
> Now you might say that it doesn't matter how those people feel. They're not us. What?? How in the universe are you getting there? Talk about a strawman! The real explanation is much simpler: They didn't know the flag was racist. Because, despite attempts to rewrite history, until recently most people did not know that flag was racist. I mean, even the producer of the show, who went out of his way to hire black actors, did not even realize that about the flag. Today, things are different, I think most people know the flag is racist. But in the past? I suspect the vast majority did not realize it.
- themacguffinman 6y ago
  > Because, despite attempts to rewrite history, until recently most people did not know that flag was racist. I find this extremely unbelievable. The American Civil War is a milestone in American history that has been taught in schools for a long time. Most people, despite attempts to rewrite history, know that the Confederacy fought for the right to own black slaves.
  - ars 6y ago
    That's true, but most people don't realize the flag is a symbol of slavery, they just think it's a symbol of the South. For example take a state flag from a rebel state (and assume the flag has not changed since the civil war). If someone flew that flag today, would you think they are implying state rebellion, or just pride in their state? It's the same with the confederate flag, to most people it's just a flag that symbolizes a group of southern states. To northerners it means rebellion, specifically for slavery, but it doesn't mean that for everyone.
    - themacguffinman 6y ago
      A state flag can be ambiguous because it refers to a state, which is an ambiguous entity with a long and varied history. The Confederate States of America (CSA) is not an ambiguous entity. From beginning to end in its short 5 year history, it was made to fight for black slavery. It existed for no other purpose and was subsequently disbanded when slavery was abolished. Literally the only heritage the CSA created in its short life is rebellion and racism. If you are aware of this widely-known history, it's obvious what this flag narrowly represents. The argument that the CSA could conceivably represent Southern pride is a joke. Ask any non-racist southerner if the most racist institution in US history and its deepest shame is a good stand-in for Southern pride. Here's a thought experiment: if a group of Germans claimed that the flag of the German Reich represented their pride in Germany's independence and the valor of its veterans, would you be defending it like you are now? Would you use the same excuses? I can accept that some people may be completely unaware or are too dim to put 2 and 2 together. I simply expect that once they do learn about it, they understand why it's indefensible.
      - acdha 6y ago
        I’d even go as far as acknowledging that many people were miseducated about the history of the CSA - our local used bookstore just had a kid’s ABC book about Virginia stating that Lee was anti-slavery - but that doesn’t excuse what happens when you learn the truth. The decent reaction is to apologize and stop using it; people who don’t change are just saying they’re okay with the racism but don’t want to have any personal accountability for it.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > They didn't know the flag was racist. Because, despite attempts to rewrite history, until recently most people did not know that flag was racist. Everyone has always known the flag was a symbol of racism. That's why it was adopted. That's what it was deliberately revived for in the 20th century—as a symbol specifically against racial integration and civil rights—and what it was actively and consistently used as throughout the civil rights movement. Adults when the show was produced, less than a decade and a half after the Civil Rights Act of 1965, would not generally have failed to understand the symbolism of the flag, or the naming of the car after General Lee. It's possible that the individual producer was ignorant, but TV shows are not made by one person alone in a vacuum.

by Lendal 6y ago

ars 6y ago

> Now you might say that it doesn't matter how those people feel. They're not us. What?? How in the universe are you getting there? Talk about a strawman! The real explanation is much simpler: They didn't know the flag was racist. Because, despite attempts to rewrite history, until recently most people did not know that flag was racist. I mean, even the producer of the show, who went out of his way to hire black actors, did not even realize that about the flag. Today, things are different, I think most people know the flag is racist. But in the past? I suspect the vast majority did not realize it.

themacguffinman 6y ago
> Because, despite attempts to rewrite history, until recently most people did not know that flag was racist. I find this extremely unbelievable. The American Civil War is a milestone in American history that has been taught in schools for a long time. Most people, despite attempts to rewrite history, know that the Confederacy fought for the right to own black slaves.
- ars 6y ago
  That's true, but most people don't realize the flag is a symbol of slavery, they just think it's a symbol of the South. For example take a state flag from a rebel state (and assume the flag has not changed since the civil war). If someone flew that flag today, would you think they are implying state rebellion, or just pride in their state? It's the same with the confederate flag, to most people it's just a flag that symbolizes a group of southern states. To northerners it means rebellion, specifically for slavery, but it doesn't mean that for everyone.
  - themacguffinman 6y ago
    A state flag can be ambiguous because it refers to a state, which is an ambiguous entity with a long and varied history. The Confederate States of America (CSA) is not an ambiguous entity. From beginning to end in its short 5 year history, it was made to fight for black slavery. It existed for no other purpose and was subsequently disbanded when slavery was abolished. Literally the only heritage the CSA created in its short life is rebellion and racism. If you are aware of this widely-known history, it's obvious what this flag narrowly represents. The argument that the CSA could conceivably represent Southern pride is a joke. Ask any non-racist southerner if the most racist institution in US history and its deepest shame is a good stand-in for Southern pride. Here's a thought experiment: if a group of Germans claimed that the flag of the German Reich represented their pride in Germany's independence and the valor of its veterans, would you be defending it like you are now? Would you use the same excuses? I can accept that some people may be completely unaware or are too dim to put 2 and 2 together. I simply expect that once they do learn about it, they understand why it's indefensible.
    - acdha 6y ago
      I’d even go as far as acknowledging that many people were miseducated about the history of the CSA - our local used bookstore just had a kid’s ABC book about Virginia stating that Lee was anti-slavery - but that doesn’t excuse what happens when you learn the truth. The decent reaction is to apologize and stop using it; people who don’t change are just saying they’re okay with the racism but don’t want to have any personal accountability for it.
dragonwriter 6y ago
> They didn't know the flag was racist. Because, despite attempts to rewrite history, until recently most people did not know that flag was racist. Everyone has always known the flag was a symbol of racism. That's why it was adopted. That's what it was deliberately revived for in the 20th century—as a symbol specifically against racial integration and civil rights—and what it was actively and consistently used as throughout the civil rights movement. Adults when the show was produced, less than a decade and a half after the Civil Rights Act of 1965, would not generally have failed to understand the symbolism of the flag, or the naming of the car after General Lee. It's possible that the individual producer was ignorant, but TV shows are not made by one person alone in a vacuum.