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If being the 5th largest economy in the world and contributing more tax dollars to the Federal government than it receives is largely dysfunctional, that sounds

by mwfunk 6y ago

If being the 5th largest economy in the world and contributing more tax dollars to the Federal government than it receives is largely dysfunctional, that sounds pretty awesome. California has tons of problems but I can't think of many less dysfunctional states. For example, Texas has the second largest economy amongst the states, and would be the world's 10th largest economy, but IMO it's more dysfunctional than California because it's on the dole for $50bil annually from the rest of the country. They subsidize their low taxes by sponging off the other states, including California and New York. Also, Ted Cruz.

creddit 6y ago
“If being the largest economy in the world and extracting from its tax base the largest governmental budget in the world is dysfunctional, that sounds pretty awesome.” If this is the logic that defines a functional government, then the Federal government seems to be a massive success as well. I’m not sure why this would be the metric for a functional government, however. Government dysfunction in SF/CA can be seen in the following: - California’s attempts at public infrastructure: https://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/California-s-bullet-train-project-faces-15356051.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/California-s-bu... - Housing affordability - SF Central Subway https://sf.streetsblog.org/2019/09/12/advocates-flummoxed-and-fuming-over-latest-central-subway-delays/ https://sf.streetsblog.org/2019/09/12/advocates-flummoxed-an... - Homelessness - Bay Bridge https://sf.streetsblog.org/2019/09/12/advocates-flummoxed-and-fuming-over-latest-central-subway-delays/ https://sf.streetsblog.org/2019/09/12/advocates-flummoxed-an... - State budget issues (see pension liabilities) and many, many more things that go beyond this.
- chillacy 6y ago
  Those don't sound unique to CA, every big city has similar problems.
  - creddit 6y ago
    Very many of them, yes. This is broadly my point :)
bhupy 6y ago
> If being the 5th largest economy in the world and contributing more tax dollars to the Federal government than it receives is largely dysfunctional, that sounds pretty awesome. California has tons of problems but I can't think of many less dysfunctional states. 1. Simply being the 5th largest economy in the world doesn't say enough about how successful it is in its goals. Incidentally, California suffers from the worst amount of income inequality in the Union, and the highest rate of poverty. The income required to afford the median home in California is on average higher than just about anywhere else in the Union, even when you take into account the higher local salaries. 2. Because the largest Federal government expenditures are in 1) Social Security, 2) Medicare, and 3) the military (in that order), the states in the Union that will receive the most Federal tax dollars are the ones that have the most elderly people and the most military bases per capita. That California contributes more than it receives isn't a particular strong indicator of its health as a State. You could argue that states with more Medicaid recipients are more dysfunctional, but because Medicaid only constitutes ~15% of the Federal budget, it's less consequential to the variance than {SS, Medicare, Defense}. > For example, Texas has the second largest economy amongst the states, and would be the world's 10th largest economy, but IMO it's more dysfunctional than California because it's on the dole for $50bil annually from the rest of the country. They subsidize their low taxes by sponging off the other states, including California and New York. Okay, but no one here is arguing that Texas is a paragon of functional state governance. The argument is that California is a dysfunctional government. Both Texas and California can be dysfunctional for different reasons! On the flip side, Washington has no state income tax, is less dependent on the Federal government than California, AND enjoys a lower poverty rate. Ditto New Hampshire, Utah, Minnesota, Vermont, Maryland, Massachusetts, and Virginia. A ranking of states by "quality of life"[1] ranks California at 19th. [1] https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings
- creddit 6y ago
  Yes, agreed on all points. The parent’s post is exactly what you expect to see happen when the point gets read strictly as being made through the lens of the false dichotomy of left/right, Democrat/Republican, etc. They construct an arbitrary measure which defends their in-group and then without prompting bring in an example of their out-group being worse. The broad point I was trying to make is exactly that government dysfunction is NOT tied to a singular political party’s attacks on the institution of government. It’s something deeper and more fundamental, represented in both parties.
AnthonyMouse 6y ago
> They subsidize their low taxes by sponging off the other states, including California and New York. California is actually a net recipient (only slightly): https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/federal-aid-by-state https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/federal-aid... Texas is also hardly the worst offender. That would be Virginia at $10,301 per capita, compared to $304 for Texas. There is only one state (Utah) between Texas and California. But if the people of California or New York (which actually is a big net payer) would like to vote away a lot of these federal programs and replace them at the state level at the option of the individual states, I imagine the people of Texas might concur.

by mwfunk 6y ago

creddit 6y ago

“If being the largest economy in the world and extracting from its tax base the largest governmental budget in the world is dysfunctional, that sounds pretty awesome.” If this is the logic that defines a functional government, then the Federal government seems to be a massive success as well. I’m not sure why this would be the metric for a functional government, however. Government dysfunction in SF/CA can be seen in the following: - California’s attempts at public infrastructure: https://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/California-s-bullet-train-project-faces-15356051.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/California-s-bu... - Housing affordability - SF Central Subway https://sf.streetsblog.org/2019/09/12/advocates-flummoxed-and-fuming-over-latest-central-subway-delays/ https://sf.streetsblog.org/2019/09/12/advocates-flummoxed-an... - Homelessness - Bay Bridge https://sf.streetsblog.org/2019/09/12/advocates-flummoxed-and-fuming-over-latest-central-subway-delays/ https://sf.streetsblog.org/2019/09/12/advocates-flummoxed-an... - State budget issues (see pension liabilities) and many, many more things that go beyond this.

chillacy 6y ago
Those don't sound unique to CA, every big city has similar problems.
- creddit 6y ago
  Very many of them, yes. This is broadly my point :)

bhupy 6y ago

> If being the 5th largest economy in the world and contributing more tax dollars to the Federal government than it receives is largely dysfunctional, that sounds pretty awesome. California has tons of problems but I can't think of many less dysfunctional states. 1. Simply being the 5th largest economy in the world doesn't say enough about how successful it is in its goals. Incidentally, California suffers from the worst amount of income inequality in the Union, and the highest rate of poverty. The income required to afford the median home in California is on average higher than just about anywhere else in the Union, even when you take into account the higher local salaries. 2. Because the largest Federal government expenditures are in 1) Social Security, 2) Medicare, and 3) the military (in that order), the states in the Union that will receive the most Federal tax dollars are the ones that have the most elderly people and the most military bases per capita. That California contributes more than it receives isn't a particular strong indicator of its health as a State. You could argue that states with more Medicaid recipients are more dysfunctional, but because Medicaid only constitutes ~15% of the Federal budget, it's less consequential to the variance than {SS, Medicare, Defense}. > For example, Texas has the second largest economy amongst the states, and would be the world's 10th largest economy, but IMO it's more dysfunctional than California because it's on the dole for $50bil annually from the rest of the country. They subsidize their low taxes by sponging off the other states, including California and New York. Okay, but no one here is arguing that Texas is a paragon of functional state governance. The argument is that California is a dysfunctional government. Both Texas and California can be dysfunctional for different reasons! On the flip side, Washington has no state income tax, is less dependent on the Federal government than California, AND enjoys a lower poverty rate. Ditto New Hampshire, Utah, Minnesota, Vermont, Maryland, Massachusetts, and Virginia. A ranking of states by "quality of life"[1] ranks California at 19th. [1] https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings

creddit 6y ago
Yes, agreed on all points. The parent’s post is exactly what you expect to see happen when the point gets read strictly as being made through the lens of the false dichotomy of left/right, Democrat/Republican, etc. They construct an arbitrary measure which defends their in-group and then without prompting bring in an example of their out-group being worse. The broad point I was trying to make is exactly that government dysfunction is NOT tied to a singular political party’s attacks on the institution of government. It’s something deeper and more fundamental, represented in both parties.

AnthonyMouse 6y ago

> They subsidize their low taxes by sponging off the other states, including California and New York. California is actually a net recipient (only slightly): https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/federal-aid-by-state https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/federal-aid... Texas is also hardly the worst offender. That would be Virginia at $10,301 per capita, compared to $304 for Texas. There is only one state (Utah) between Texas and California. But if the people of California or New York (which actually is a big net payer) would like to vote away a lot of these federal programs and replace them at the state level at the option of the individual states, I imagine the people of Texas might concur.