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Have you never been to a southern state? It's been flown ever since the war and has been detached from the war and attached to southern identity. It's part of t

Have you never been to a southern state? It's been flown ever since the war and has been detached from the war and attached to southern identity. It's part of the culture here.

abrowne 6y ago
And now there's increased interest in wanting to change that culture.
- TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
  I understand the desire, but know that there are real-world reprocussions to such hamfisted attempts to leverage power, particularly before an election. Cultural issues and conflicts were a big part of why the 2016 presidential elections turned out the way they did.
rayiner 6y ago
That begs the question. Why did southerners pick the battle flag of the war they fought to preserve slavery as the symbol for "southern identity?"
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- linuxftw 6y ago
  You could spend some time researching what those people actually think and why they think it. Don't let others speak for them, find out for yourself.
  - freehunter 6y ago
    I researched it and turns out it's all about slavery and not states rights since the CSA mandated that all states in the CSA must allow slavery. I just saved everyone a ton of time there.
- baddox 6y ago
  And why did it just so happen to be chosen as a symbol by a short-lived but prominent segregationist political party in 1948 in response to the civil rights movement?
- torstenvl 6y ago
  They didn't. They chose the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia because of widespread admiration of Lee, who, while no abolitionist, called slavery a political and moral evil; who insisted on reconciliation after the war and rejected Lost Cause mythology; and who called upon Southerners to vow loyalty to the United States. There's a reason they chose Lee's flag and not a CSA flag associated directly with a rabid slaver like Jefferson Davis. Indeed, the Army of Northern Virginia flag used to be a symbol of progressive racial integration, at a time when poor white southern migrant workers and poor African Americans found common cause against unfair wages and unsafe working conditions. https://consortiumnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/8gvw5gau7twx-1.jpg https://consortiumnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/8gvw5g... https://images-theconversation-com.cdn.ampproject.org/i/s/images.theconversation.com/files/151989/original/image-20170106-18679-eh7vob.png https://images-theconversation-com.cdn.ampproject.org/i/s/im... History is nuanced. Insisting that your view of what a symbol means should control others is toxic and Orwellian. Our society should be better than that.
  - timsally 6y ago
    It is the flag flown by an armed group that killed soldiers in the United States Army, is it not? [1] This fact gets lost in the debate. No American should fly the flag of any group that targeted and killed members of the United States Armed Forces. [1] https://history.army.mil/books/R&H/R&H-FM.htm https://history.army.mil/books/R&H/R&H-FM.htm, Section VI with Ulysses Simpson Grant as part of the unbroken chain of command.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - SamReidHughes 6y ago
      They were defending themselves against invasion by the U.S. Army.
      - timsally 6y ago
        How can someone be "defending" themselves when they initiated hostilities? [1] Unilateral succession is illegal. Those flying the confederate flag were not defending themselves, they were committing treason. Our Union is an indestructible one. It was safeguarded then by the U.S. Army who will continue to safeguard it as long as America endures. It feels me with great sadness to think of the blood that was spilled, but at the end of the day Americans who take up arms against the U.S. Army are criminals and traitors. No American should fly the flag of those who have killed our soldiers. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fort_Sumter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fort_Sumter
filleduchaos 6y ago
People keep throwing around words like "heritage", "southern identity" and "culture", but are most often very hard pressed indeed to explain what exactly is the identity or culture that is best represented by what's at the very least a flag of sedition/treason (even if we leave out the racist overtones). I mean, it's not like I'm wholly unsympathetic to failed secessionist states and their symbols/paraphernalia. People still use the flag of Biafra where I'm from, after all. But those that do are self-aware enough to acknowledge/be upfront about the values they hold and the message they pass when they use it (it certainly helps that Biafra attempted to secede in response to ethnic tensions/discrimination, not because it wanted amongst other things the right to keep slaves).
- TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
  People are hard pressed to explain what is the identity or culture best represented by what's a flag of sedition/treason It's just a symbol of identity or culture, like most flags. There's a massive cultural difference between the rural south and the highly populated coastal cities. The flag to many is a symbol of that difference, and has many of the psychological undertones that makes the "don't tread on me" flag popular, mostly a willingness to push back against external influences.
  - snowwrestler 6y ago
    There are a lot of people in the South who do not show or like the Confederate flag, even in rural areas. And there are a lot of people outside the South who do show and like the Confederate flag. So while I agree that it's a symbol of an identity and culture, I don't think it's a geographic regional identity and culture. I think you're arguing in good faith based on your own experience, but I would gently suggest this is an opportunity to consider a wider variety of data and perspectives.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
havelhovel 6y ago
The point is that a rebel fighting for slavery doesn’t have to be the defining identity of southerners. The Civil War is a sliver of time in history experienced by a specific branch of someone’s ancestry (if even that).
jcranmer 6y ago
Have you never been to rural NY? The Confederate flag flies all over the place there, and I rather suspect that very few of those flying it are doing so because of Southern heritage.
- catalogia 6y ago
  > Have you never been to rural NY? The Confederate flag flies all over the place there Many times, and I can earnestly say I've never seen that. Nor in rural Pennsylvania for that matter, which I would otherwise characterize as slightly less sophisticated than NY. Are there racists in that region? Certainly. But I can't recall ever seeing somebody in those states flying the confederate flag. I'm sure it's happened before, I'm sure you can find me local news reporting on instances of it. But it's definitely not a common sight.
  - xzel 6y ago
    Counter anecdote: I’ve spent 20 years around PA and I’ve seen it plenty of times throughout the state. Just recently I saw a set of half confederate half American flags near the Water Gap, which was new for me. It’s uncommon in most of PA but it’s pretty common to see handful of Confederate bumper stickers on a drive across the state.
  - freehunter 6y ago
    I'm from Michigan, the state that gave the Union General Custer and when asked to give one regiment actually supplied seven regiments of men to fight against the CSA. And the Confederate battle flag flies everywhere around the state. It's an absolute travesty of history and it's downright embarrassing.
  - tptacek 6y ago
    I've seen it in New York, in Pennsylvania, and, memorably, once in northern Ohio, while doing a canvass --- one I wish I'd seen before I knocked on the door and got chased off the property.
    - 6y ago
runako 6y ago
> attached to southern identity Southerner here. The South is a very diverse place with a sizable African-American population. Perhaps I'm just missing all the African-Americans who proudly fly the Confederate battle flag, but my perception is the flag is used by a small subset of white southerners as an anti-virtue-signaling device. Are you suggesting that African-Americans identify with the Confederate battle flag flown in service of keeping their ancestors enslaved, or did you mean that the flag had attached to a particular subset of Southern identity? Please expand, I'm curious.
- TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
  The fact that it isn't a symbol of southern heritage for everyone doesn't mean it's not a southern symbol for many. Are you suggesting that African-Americans identify with the Confederate battle flag...? No, and nothing in my comments suggested that. It makes sense that they wouldn't since their relatives probably didn't after the war. For many people, their relatives did identify with the flag. It probably started as something racist by the survivors of the war, but morphed into what it is today, something that isn't considered racist by most around where I live. Do you really think NASCAR, a big business, would have previously allowed it to be flown if it was universally considered a hate symbol?
  - pmiller2 6y ago
    > The fact that it isn't a symbol of southern heritage for everyone doesn't mean it's not a southern symbol for many. Could that be because there isn't just one type of "southern heritage?" Do you really want to equate the southern heritage of black people in the south with those who fly the Confederate battle flag?
    - IncRnd 6y ago
      If you search at images.google.com for "black people confederate flag" without quotes, you will see black people who support the confederate flag. Strangely, that is practically all that is shown for pages. I don't know what all of their reasons are, but they exist and those people have just as much of a right to their beliefs as others have. They are people with their own heritage. One heritage is that some people fought for freedom and the ability to secede, not for slavery.
cgrealy 6y ago
If your culture and heritage is "treason and racism", maybe that's not a culture or heritage worth preserving?

Have you never been to a southern state? It's been flown ever since the war and has been detached from the war and attached to southern identity. It's part of the culture here.

abrowne 6y ago

And now there's increased interest in wanting to change that culture.

TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
I understand the desire, but know that there are real-world reprocussions to such hamfisted attempts to leverage power, particularly before an election. Cultural issues and conflicts were a big part of why the 2016 presidential elections turned out the way they did.

rayiner 6y ago

That begs the question. Why did southerners pick the battle flag of the war they fought to preserve slavery as the symbol for "southern identity?"

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
linuxftw 6y ago
You could spend some time researching what those people actually think and why they think it. Don't let others speak for them, find out for yourself.
- freehunter 6y ago
  I researched it and turns out it's all about slavery and not states rights since the CSA mandated that all states in the CSA must allow slavery. I just saved everyone a ton of time there.
baddox 6y ago
And why did it just so happen to be chosen as a symbol by a short-lived but prominent segregationist political party in 1948 in response to the civil rights movement?
torstenvl 6y ago
They didn't. They chose the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia because of widespread admiration of Lee, who, while no abolitionist, called slavery a political and moral evil; who insisted on reconciliation after the war and rejected Lost Cause mythology; and who called upon Southerners to vow loyalty to the United States. There's a reason they chose Lee's flag and not a CSA flag associated directly with a rabid slaver like Jefferson Davis. Indeed, the Army of Northern Virginia flag used to be a symbol of progressive racial integration, at a time when poor white southern migrant workers and poor African Americans found common cause against unfair wages and unsafe working conditions. https://consortiumnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/8gvw5gau7twx-1.jpg https://consortiumnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/8gvw5g... https://images-theconversation-com.cdn.ampproject.org/i/s/images.theconversation.com/files/151989/original/image-20170106-18679-eh7vob.png https://images-theconversation-com.cdn.ampproject.org/i/s/im... History is nuanced. Insisting that your view of what a symbol means should control others is toxic and Orwellian. Our society should be better than that.
- timsally 6y ago
  It is the flag flown by an armed group that killed soldiers in the United States Army, is it not? [1] This fact gets lost in the debate. No American should fly the flag of any group that targeted and killed members of the United States Armed Forces. [1] https://history.army.mil/books/R&H/R&H-FM.htm https://history.army.mil/books/R&H/R&H-FM.htm, Section VI with Ulysses Simpson Grant as part of the unbroken chain of command.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - SamReidHughes 6y ago
    They were defending themselves against invasion by the U.S. Army.
    - timsally 6y ago
      How can someone be "defending" themselves when they initiated hostilities? [1] Unilateral succession is illegal. Those flying the confederate flag were not defending themselves, they were committing treason. Our Union is an indestructible one. It was safeguarded then by the U.S. Army who will continue to safeguard it as long as America endures. It feels me with great sadness to think of the blood that was spilled, but at the end of the day Americans who take up arms against the U.S. Army are criminals and traitors. No American should fly the flag of those who have killed our soldiers. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fort_Sumter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fort_Sumter

filleduchaos 6y ago

People keep throwing around words like "heritage", "southern identity" and "culture", but are most often very hard pressed indeed to explain what exactly is the identity or culture that is best represented by what's at the very least a flag of sedition/treason (even if we leave out the racist overtones). I mean, it's not like I'm wholly unsympathetic to failed secessionist states and their symbols/paraphernalia. People still use the flag of Biafra where I'm from, after all. But those that do are self-aware enough to acknowledge/be upfront about the values they hold and the message they pass when they use it (it certainly helps that Biafra attempted to secede in response to ethnic tensions/discrimination, not because it wanted amongst other things the right to keep slaves).

TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
People are hard pressed to explain what is the identity or culture best represented by what's a flag of sedition/treason It's just a symbol of identity or culture, like most flags. There's a massive cultural difference between the rural south and the highly populated coastal cities. The flag to many is a symbol of that difference, and has many of the psychological undertones that makes the "don't tread on me" flag popular, mostly a willingness to push back against external influences.
- snowwrestler 6y ago
  There are a lot of people in the South who do not show or like the Confederate flag, even in rural areas. And there are a lot of people outside the South who do show and like the Confederate flag. So while I agree that it's a symbol of an identity and culture, I don't think it's a geographic regional identity and culture. I think you're arguing in good faith based on your own experience, but I would gently suggest this is an opportunity to consider a wider variety of data and perspectives.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

havelhovel 6y ago

The point is that a rebel fighting for slavery doesn’t have to be the defining identity of southerners. The Civil War is a sliver of time in history experienced by a specific branch of someone’s ancestry (if even that).

jcranmer 6y ago

Have you never been to rural NY? The Confederate flag flies all over the place there, and I rather suspect that very few of those flying it are doing so because of Southern heritage.

catalogia 6y ago
> Have you never been to rural NY? The Confederate flag flies all over the place there Many times, and I can earnestly say I've never seen that. Nor in rural Pennsylvania for that matter, which I would otherwise characterize as slightly less sophisticated than NY. Are there racists in that region? Certainly. But I can't recall ever seeing somebody in those states flying the confederate flag. I'm sure it's happened before, I'm sure you can find me local news reporting on instances of it. But it's definitely not a common sight.
- xzel 6y ago
  Counter anecdote: I’ve spent 20 years around PA and I’ve seen it plenty of times throughout the state. Just recently I saw a set of half confederate half American flags near the Water Gap, which was new for me. It’s uncommon in most of PA but it’s pretty common to see handful of Confederate bumper stickers on a drive across the state.
- freehunter 6y ago
  I'm from Michigan, the state that gave the Union General Custer and when asked to give one regiment actually supplied seven regiments of men to fight against the CSA. And the Confederate battle flag flies everywhere around the state. It's an absolute travesty of history and it's downright embarrassing.
- tptacek 6y ago
  I've seen it in New York, in Pennsylvania, and, memorably, once in northern Ohio, while doing a canvass --- one I wish I'd seen before I knocked on the door and got chased off the property.
  - 6y ago

runako 6y ago

> attached to southern identity Southerner here. The South is a very diverse place with a sizable African-American population. Perhaps I'm just missing all the African-Americans who proudly fly the Confederate battle flag, but my perception is the flag is used by a small subset of white southerners as an anti-virtue-signaling device. Are you suggesting that African-Americans identify with the Confederate battle flag flown in service of keeping their ancestors enslaved, or did you mean that the flag had attached to a particular subset of Southern identity? Please expand, I'm curious.

TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
The fact that it isn't a symbol of southern heritage for everyone doesn't mean it's not a southern symbol for many. Are you suggesting that African-Americans identify with the Confederate battle flag...? No, and nothing in my comments suggested that. It makes sense that they wouldn't since their relatives probably didn't after the war. For many people, their relatives did identify with the flag. It probably started as something racist by the survivors of the war, but morphed into what it is today, something that isn't considered racist by most around where I live. Do you really think NASCAR, a big business, would have previously allowed it to be flown if it was universally considered a hate symbol?
- pmiller2 6y ago
  > The fact that it isn't a symbol of southern heritage for everyone doesn't mean it's not a southern symbol for many. Could that be because there isn't just one type of "southern heritage?" Do you really want to equate the southern heritage of black people in the south with those who fly the Confederate battle flag?
  - IncRnd 6y ago
    If you search at images.google.com for "black people confederate flag" without quotes, you will see black people who support the confederate flag. Strangely, that is practically all that is shown for pages. I don't know what all of their reasons are, but they exist and those people have just as much of a right to their beliefs as others have. They are people with their own heritage. One heritage is that some people fought for freedom and the ability to secede, not for slavery.

cgrealy 6y ago

If your culture and heritage is "treason and racism", maybe that's not a culture or heritage worth preserving?