6 ms·

I'm assuming that swastikas have much more universal unpopularity than the confederacy flag. Heck, in 2020, MS just voted to remove confederate symbol from the

by jeegsy 6y ago

I'm assuming that swastikas have much more universal unpopularity than the confederacy flag. Heck, in 2020, MS just voted to remove confederate symbol from the state flag. SO I dont think the comparison is all there. My concern with these sort of deplatforming moves while understandable, is they tend to drive these bigoted ideas underground. So maybe they cant express it publicly but boy, do they find other ways to do it as certain church members' families can attest. I don't have a definite solution but there is something to be said for using informal social pressure (i.e confederate decal dude all of a sudden not finding anyone to play with, because people quit the game as soon as they see the flag) rather than deplatforming.

tedunangst 6y ago
Is the reverse even remotely close to true? If MS allowed confederate flags on cars, would the bigoted idea underground disappear?
- norswap 6y ago
  I don't think "taking underground" is the right metaphor, but it intensifies polarization, and makes these people feel persecuted. It's not that they care about the flag that much for most of them. It's that suddenly, it's not even allowed anymore and they don't agree with that. Frankly, I couldn't care less about the confederate flag, but the thought process here is very relatable. And then these people vote. People who feel (rightly or wrongly) persecuted tend to lash out, whether it's by breaking statues or electing far-sides candidates.
  - Natsu 6y ago
    Somehow this reminds me a lot of the "don't stuff beans up your nose" rule on Wikipedia.
  - 8note 6y ago
    I'd say the opposite; it's the openness in the first place that is polarizing. The current polarization happened before Microsoft stopped letting you make racist cars
naruvimama 6y ago
Swastika is yet another example of "western universalism", it has a relatively recent negative connotation in Europe & US. Whereas for Asians, native Americans & for much of the ancient world it has entirely different meanings.
- protomyth 6y ago
  Yeah, there are a couple of tipis that go up every year that get comments from the damn ignorant. What can I expect from people looking for outrage?
  - naruvimama 6y ago
    Meanwhile it is used by radical groups to run smear campaigns elsewhere in the world. https://swarajyamag.com/news-brief/from-devi-in-hijab-om-as-nazi-symbol-to-kaafiro-se-azadi-recent-protests-show-hindutva-hate-is-hindu-hate https://swarajyamag.com/news-brief/from-devi-in-hijab-om-as-...
    - protomyth 6y ago
      Well, that is them and this is us. I think expecting other cultures to stop using something because someone else "ruined" it is stupid. I'm also getting a little sick of down votes every damn time I mention Native Americans. I'm starting to wonder.
- bastawhiz 6y ago
  > it has a relatively recent negative connotation in Europe & US Seventeen million people died in the Holocaust. That number is larger than the dollar amount that many of the companies on this website raise. That's more people than you'll meet in your entire lifetime, perhaps more than you'll _see_ in your lifetime. This is the population of New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, and Houston put together. Those people were physically destroyed by folks identifying with that symbol. It's really, really hard to say this symbol doesn't carry hate universally—even if a Buddhist practitioner were to use it—because putting it on your video game car on _a global game_ whose audience is ~100% folks who are well-aware of nazism (and, in fact, people whose histories are tainted by the effects of the Holocaust). But more to the point, the confederate flag _was invented_ to represent hate. It had no established use before the confederacy. Pedantry about whether swastikas are universally racist or not is pointless, because the topic at hand is about a symbol which is universally recognized as one of hate.
bronson 6y ago
> but boy, do they find other ways to do it as certain church members' families can attest. Your argument is that, if society was more tolerant of bigots and their symbols, then Dylan Roof might not have murdered nine people? History indicates otherwise: the US was a lot more tolerant of racism in the past and there was a lot more violence.
- jeegsy 6y ago
  > if society was more tolerant of bigots and their symbols, then Dylan Roof might not have murdered nine people In your defense, that may be the surface level interpretation of what I said. However, I am not saying that in any way shape or form. Closer to what I'm saying is that, censorship artificially reduces the number of monsters in our polity that we are able to identify. They are prevented from expression so we don't hear or see them and thus have the mistaken belief that more progress has been made when that couldn't be further from the truth. I want people to be open with their racism/bigotry, so that I know to steer clear.
  - cgrealy 6y ago
    The problem with that is that the primary effect of open racism and bigotry is to normalise and encourage more open racism and bigotry. It's all well and good to be able to identify these people, but the downside is that their victims have to put up with more racism and bigotry. Frankly, if we drive it underground, great! Let's keep driving it underground until it suffocates.
davidgay 6y ago
> I'm assuming that swastikas have much more universal unpopularity than the confederacy flag. Coincidentally, a news item from yesterday about swastikas: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53249645 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53249645
bastawhiz 6y ago
> I'm assuming that swastikas have much more universal unpopularity than the confederacy flag. Does the popularity of a racist symbol have any correlation with whether it should be suppressed? Swastikas were a lot more present in the 1940s but that doesn't mean they were less reprehensible. If a far-right group started using a brand-new symbol to signify their racist ideology, is it suddenly worth waiting for the symbol to pick up steam before prohibiting it? That doesn't make a lot of sense. The people using the symbol are saying "I don't think you should exist" _right now_, not when there is a sufficient number of others rallying around their belief system. The confederate flag is hundreds of years old. Waiting for "informal social pressure" to kick in is a great way to ignore a problem.
- LocalH 6y ago
  Do you literally want to give the racists power to cherry pick from all of culture to take things that have existed for thousands of years and lock them away behind censorship? If someone is specifically using the Nazi version of the swastika, then by all means handle it. But if it's the non-Nazi version, then why do people not get to reclaim it?
  - bastawhiz 6y ago
    Is putting a swastika on your Microsoft car truly the way to reclaim a symbol which, in the last century, has been used almost exclusively for hate? No. It's not the venue. There is no room for explanation or context. It's a symbol on a car. If you're going to reclaim a symbol—arguably the symbol MOST APPROPRIATED for hate—indiscriminately regardless of the context, you're either a fool or a troll.
uoylj 6y ago
I would say swastikas have much more universal POPULARITY, and that Microsoft or Hitler don't get to define their meaning globally. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika
naruvimama 6y ago
Please stop calling it a swastika https://www.facebook.com/upwordindia/videos/2662610620694569/?d=null&vh=e https://www.facebook.com/upwordindia/videos/2662610620694569...

by jeegsy 6y ago

tedunangst 6y ago

Is the reverse even remotely close to true? If MS allowed confederate flags on cars, would the bigoted idea underground disappear?

norswap 6y ago
I don't think "taking underground" is the right metaphor, but it intensifies polarization, and makes these people feel persecuted. It's not that they care about the flag that much for most of them. It's that suddenly, it's not even allowed anymore and they don't agree with that. Frankly, I couldn't care less about the confederate flag, but the thought process here is very relatable. And then these people vote. People who feel (rightly or wrongly) persecuted tend to lash out, whether it's by breaking statues or electing far-sides candidates.
- Natsu 6y ago
  Somehow this reminds me a lot of the "don't stuff beans up your nose" rule on Wikipedia.
- 8note 6y ago
  I'd say the opposite; it's the openness in the first place that is polarizing. The current polarization happened before Microsoft stopped letting you make racist cars

naruvimama 6y ago

Swastika is yet another example of "western universalism", it has a relatively recent negative connotation in Europe & US. Whereas for Asians, native Americans & for much of the ancient world it has entirely different meanings.

protomyth 6y ago
Yeah, there are a couple of tipis that go up every year that get comments from the damn ignorant. What can I expect from people looking for outrage?
- naruvimama 6y ago
  Meanwhile it is used by radical groups to run smear campaigns elsewhere in the world. https://swarajyamag.com/news-brief/from-devi-in-hijab-om-as-nazi-symbol-to-kaafiro-se-azadi-recent-protests-show-hindutva-hate-is-hindu-hate https://swarajyamag.com/news-brief/from-devi-in-hijab-om-as-...
  - protomyth 6y ago
    Well, that is them and this is us. I think expecting other cultures to stop using something because someone else "ruined" it is stupid. I'm also getting a little sick of down votes every damn time I mention Native Americans. I'm starting to wonder.
bastawhiz 6y ago
> it has a relatively recent negative connotation in Europe & US Seventeen million people died in the Holocaust. That number is larger than the dollar amount that many of the companies on this website raise. That's more people than you'll meet in your entire lifetime, perhaps more than you'll _see_ in your lifetime. This is the population of New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, and Houston put together. Those people were physically destroyed by folks identifying with that symbol. It's really, really hard to say this symbol doesn't carry hate universally—even if a Buddhist practitioner were to use it—because putting it on your video game car on _a global game_ whose audience is ~100% folks who are well-aware of nazism (and, in fact, people whose histories are tainted by the effects of the Holocaust). But more to the point, the confederate flag _was invented_ to represent hate. It had no established use before the confederacy. Pedantry about whether swastikas are universally racist or not is pointless, because the topic at hand is about a symbol which is universally recognized as one of hate.

bronson 6y ago

> but boy, do they find other ways to do it as certain church members' families can attest. Your argument is that, if society was more tolerant of bigots and their symbols, then Dylan Roof might not have murdered nine people? History indicates otherwise: the US was a lot more tolerant of racism in the past and there was a lot more violence.

jeegsy 6y ago
> if society was more tolerant of bigots and their symbols, then Dylan Roof might not have murdered nine people In your defense, that may be the surface level interpretation of what I said. However, I am not saying that in any way shape or form. Closer to what I'm saying is that, censorship artificially reduces the number of monsters in our polity that we are able to identify. They are prevented from expression so we don't hear or see them and thus have the mistaken belief that more progress has been made when that couldn't be further from the truth. I want people to be open with their racism/bigotry, so that I know to steer clear.
- cgrealy 6y ago
  The problem with that is that the primary effect of open racism and bigotry is to normalise and encourage more open racism and bigotry. It's all well and good to be able to identify these people, but the downside is that their victims have to put up with more racism and bigotry. Frankly, if we drive it underground, great! Let's keep driving it underground until it suffocates.

davidgay 6y ago

> I'm assuming that swastikas have much more universal unpopularity than the confederacy flag. Coincidentally, a news item from yesterday about swastikas: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53249645 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53249645

bastawhiz 6y ago

> I'm assuming that swastikas have much more universal unpopularity than the confederacy flag. Does the popularity of a racist symbol have any correlation with whether it should be suppressed? Swastikas were a lot more present in the 1940s but that doesn't mean they were less reprehensible. If a far-right group started using a brand-new symbol to signify their racist ideology, is it suddenly worth waiting for the symbol to pick up steam before prohibiting it? That doesn't make a lot of sense. The people using the symbol are saying "I don't think you should exist" _right now_, not when there is a sufficient number of others rallying around their belief system. The confederate flag is hundreds of years old. Waiting for "informal social pressure" to kick in is a great way to ignore a problem.

LocalH 6y ago
Do you literally want to give the racists power to cherry pick from all of culture to take things that have existed for thousands of years and lock them away behind censorship? If someone is specifically using the Nazi version of the swastika, then by all means handle it. But if it's the non-Nazi version, then why do people not get to reclaim it?
- bastawhiz 6y ago
  Is putting a swastika on your Microsoft car truly the way to reclaim a symbol which, in the last century, has been used almost exclusively for hate? No. It's not the venue. There is no room for explanation or context. It's a symbol on a car. If you're going to reclaim a symbol—arguably the symbol MOST APPROPRIATED for hate—indiscriminately regardless of the context, you're either a fool or a troll.

uoylj 6y ago

I would say swastikas have much more universal POPULARITY, and that Microsoft or Hitler don't get to define their meaning globally. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

naruvimama 6y ago

Please stop calling it a swastika https://www.facebook.com/upwordindia/videos/2662610620694569/?d=null&vh=e https://www.facebook.com/upwordindia/videos/2662610620694569...