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This assumes that racists are putting confederate flags on their cars in good faith. Also, what kind of discourse is so precious that it should be respected on

This assumes that racists are putting confederate flags on their cars in good faith. Also, what kind of discourse is so precious that it should be respected on the ... Forza decal platform?

Rebelgecko 6y ago
I don't think it's a good faith claim that everyone using one of the banned symbols is a racist 1. The current flag of Japan is based off of one of the banned symbols 2. Probably the most famous car in pop culture uses one of the banned symbols. Microsoft has gone as far as banning parodies of the General Lee that have none of the controversial symbols[0] If the flag of imperial Japan was banned due to its association with imperialism and colonialism [1], should the USA flag still be allowed[2]? IMO, the banning of the US flag would be excessive, but is also necessary if the rule is implemented in a fair fashion against all imperialist nations. [0]: https://forums.forzamotorsport.net/turn10_postst162853_offensive.aspx https://forums.forzamotorsport.net/turn10_postst162853_offen... [1]: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b3/Japanese_Empire_%28orthographic_projection%29.svg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b3/Japanese... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_military_bases#/media/File:American_bases_worldwide.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_military...
- 8note 6y ago
  For something you could use with a consistent approach: If they willingly undid their imperialism and colonialism, it's fine; the symbol is one of learning to not be racist If you had to invade and force them to stop it, and the regime ended while clinging to the racist policies, then it's bad
- bastawhiz 6y ago
  The origins of a symbol are mostly pointless, it's the intent of its use. It's a hard argument to say that everyone form Japan is a racist because their flag is based on a banned symbol. The confederacy existed _because of racism_. Its only purpose (and continued purpose) is to identify with a movement founded solely on the basis of hate.
  - ies7 6y ago
    This will be one of my argument about changing the current master-slave or blacklist-whitelist terminology in tech.
    - themacguffinman 6y ago
      Not sure how you can argue that the purpose of master-slave or blacklist-whitelist terminology is to identify with a movement based on hate. Unlike the confederate flag, it was never a good bet that people using those words are racist.
    - dundarious 6y ago
      The word "slave" has not become divorced from its original context. I don't think that argument passes the smell test there.
    - bastawhiz 6y ago
      Is that the same argument? The country of Japan might not change its flag for whatever reason. That's their choice, and for them to sort out. Using inclusive language is different because I'm not forcing anyone to type Japan's flag. The origin of Japan's flag doesn't equate "things that are not okay" with skin tone. Your black coworkers today, if they descended from enslaved people brought to the US, have a very high probability of having a white ancestor who was a slave owner—it's part of their identity. Or maybe your coworker was one of the millions of Americans who were forced to work hard labor because of the exception to the thirteenth amendment [0]. It's truly personal. Imagine if "blacklists" were "irishlists": if it was just the origin that was racist, would we be having the same conversation that the origin and the intent can be separated? It's not necessarily hateful to use the "old" term—how could you have been educated on inclusivity when the word is common jargon? But is it racist or hateful to say "I'm actively choosing not to use an equivalent but inclusive term because I prefer the one that I have learned is discouraging or hateful to others"? Yes, probably, in the same way that confederate flag aficionados claim that it represents something different now, or it's the way things "always" have been. In fact, the term probably didn't exist in computing when your parents were kids. Inclusive language costs nothing [1] and most importantly, it's something that _you can control_. The difference is Microsoft regulating use of the Japanese flag, which they cannot change and which isn't celebrated as a racist symbol, and making the default branch on all new internal git repos "main," which they can easily change, costs ~nothing to do, and avoids terminology which isn't used to be hateful but which is derived from hate. [0] the old "except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted" [1] I wrote and landed a PR to change "whitelist" to "allowlist" in 20 minutes. Another team codemodded >1k instances of "blacklist" away in a day. Ymmv, but it's easy to simply stop using an old term and start using a new one, replacing the old one over time.
ganoushoreilly 6y ago
A lot of these are General Lee dukes of hazard recreations. I wouldn't immediately assume that everyone with the livery was a racist, more people collecting historic car livery.
soraminazuki 6y ago
> This assumes that racists are putting confederate flags on their cars in good faith. I wouldn't call them "racists" if I believed that. > Also, what kind of discourse is so precious that it should be respected on the ... Forza decal platform? It's not only games that are doing this.

This assumes that racists are putting confederate flags on their cars in good faith. Also, what kind of discourse is so precious that it should be respected on the ... Forza decal platform?

Rebelgecko 6y ago

I don't think it's a good faith claim that everyone using one of the banned symbols is a racist 1. The current flag of Japan is based off of one of the banned symbols 2. Probably the most famous car in pop culture uses one of the banned symbols. Microsoft has gone as far as banning parodies of the General Lee that have none of the controversial symbols[0] If the flag of imperial Japan was banned due to its association with imperialism and colonialism [1], should the USA flag still be allowed[2]? IMO, the banning of the US flag would be excessive, but is also necessary if the rule is implemented in a fair fashion against all imperialist nations. [0]: https://forums.forzamotorsport.net/turn10_postst162853_offensive.aspx https://forums.forzamotorsport.net/turn10_postst162853_offen... [1]: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b3/Japanese_Empire_%28orthographic_projection%29.svg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b3/Japanese... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_military_bases#/media/File:American_bases_worldwide.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_military...

8note 6y ago
For something you could use with a consistent approach: If they willingly undid their imperialism and colonialism, it's fine; the symbol is one of learning to not be racist If you had to invade and force them to stop it, and the regime ended while clinging to the racist policies, then it's bad
bastawhiz 6y ago
The origins of a symbol are mostly pointless, it's the intent of its use. It's a hard argument to say that everyone form Japan is a racist because their flag is based on a banned symbol. The confederacy existed _because of racism_. Its only purpose (and continued purpose) is to identify with a movement founded solely on the basis of hate.
- ies7 6y ago
  This will be one of my argument about changing the current master-slave or blacklist-whitelist terminology in tech.
  - themacguffinman 6y ago
    Not sure how you can argue that the purpose of master-slave or blacklist-whitelist terminology is to identify with a movement based on hate. Unlike the confederate flag, it was never a good bet that people using those words are racist.
  - dundarious 6y ago
    The word "slave" has not become divorced from its original context. I don't think that argument passes the smell test there.
  - bastawhiz 6y ago
    Is that the same argument? The country of Japan might not change its flag for whatever reason. That's their choice, and for them to sort out. Using inclusive language is different because I'm not forcing anyone to type Japan's flag. The origin of Japan's flag doesn't equate "things that are not okay" with skin tone. Your black coworkers today, if they descended from enslaved people brought to the US, have a very high probability of having a white ancestor who was a slave owner—it's part of their identity. Or maybe your coworker was one of the millions of Americans who were forced to work hard labor because of the exception to the thirteenth amendment [0]. It's truly personal. Imagine if "blacklists" were "irishlists": if it was just the origin that was racist, would we be having the same conversation that the origin and the intent can be separated? It's not necessarily hateful to use the "old" term—how could you have been educated on inclusivity when the word is common jargon? But is it racist or hateful to say "I'm actively choosing not to use an equivalent but inclusive term because I prefer the one that I have learned is discouraging or hateful to others"? Yes, probably, in the same way that confederate flag aficionados claim that it represents something different now, or it's the way things "always" have been. In fact, the term probably didn't exist in computing when your parents were kids. Inclusive language costs nothing [1] and most importantly, it's something that _you can control_. The difference is Microsoft regulating use of the Japanese flag, which they cannot change and which isn't celebrated as a racist symbol, and making the default branch on all new internal git repos "main," which they can easily change, costs ~nothing to do, and avoids terminology which isn't used to be hateful but which is derived from hate. [0] the old "except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted" [1] I wrote and landed a PR to change "whitelist" to "allowlist" in 20 minutes. Another team codemodded >1k instances of "blacklist" away in a day. Ymmv, but it's easy to simply stop using an old term and start using a new one, replacing the old one over time.

ganoushoreilly 6y ago

A lot of these are General Lee dukes of hazard recreations. I wouldn't immediately assume that everyone with the livery was a racist, more people collecting historic car livery.

soraminazuki 6y ago

> This assumes that racists are putting confederate flags on their cars in good faith. I wouldn't call them "racists" if I believed that. > Also, what kind of discourse is so precious that it should be respected on the ... Forza decal platform? It's not only games that are doing this.