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The likelihood of this scenario is mind-bogglingly small. You need to have a valid IP configuration for the network you are on, including a default gateway that

The likelihood of this scenario is mind-bogglingly small. You need to have a valid IP configuration for the network you are on, including a default gateway that will route you to the internet, yet somehow do not have any DNS servers configured at all? Why even bother covering this case? It seems most likely to come up when this situation is created intentionally, in which case you don't want to go and ruin it by trying to be clever.

pas 6y ago
It's used for testing. (At least that was the rationale given for the NTP default setting, I guess the same applies for DNS too.) It's sort of a sane/understandable default, considering all the context. Though maybe they could switch to CloudFlare.
- jeffbee 6y ago
  Cloudflare has a dns privacy policy that is exactly like Google’s but without as many robust internal controls to enforce it. There are reasons to prefer it but a rational risk model isn’t one.
  - dundarious 6y ago
    Can you elaborate on these extra internal controls?
    - jeffbee 6y ago
      Google is pretty vocal about how only reviewed, submitted, and hermetically built code can run in production, how they audit such things, how their hardware security module helps them achieve this, etc. Cloudflare has been pretty vocal about the opposite: how they use tons of off-the-shelf software components, vendor firmware, etc. There's no reason to believe that Cloudflare is as able to provide the privacy they promise as Google is.
      - dundarious 6y ago
        Caveat that I am a DNS layman, but I disagree that Google's logging described in https://developers.google.com/speed/public-dns/privacy https://developers.google.com/speed/public-dns/privacy is equivalent to Cloudflare's described in https://developers.cloudflare.com/1.1.1.1/privacy/public-dns-resolver/ https://developers.cloudflare.com/1.1.1.1/privacy/public-dns... Google keeps Permanent Logs and doesn't make it easy for me to see whether that information can be shared and to whom. Cloudflare only stores Public Resolver Logs, deletes them after 25 hours, and acknowledges it shares an anonymized subset of the data only with APNIC Labs. Your comments about build pipeline and firmware are interesting, and to me fall into two rough camps: * preventing bugs from leaking private info: to be honest, I trust neither on this, and I'm more worried about Google being sneaky in its ToS than Cloudflare being sloppy in their dev process. * preventing infiltration from state actors and hackers -- this is a non-goal for me. So for my goal of limiting the power of surveillance capitalism on my life, Cloudflare appears to be a clear winner.
kevin_nisbet 6y ago
I agree, I would find it extremely unintuitive. I'm only scanning the issue at a high level like most others, so it really depends on how systemd presents this information. If it sort of happens in the background with the systemd resolver and shows no DNS servers but queries magically work I would be extremely confused, especially since no upstream resolution is a scenario we see in particular networks with our products. On the other hand, if it does present the servers and it's still configurable, might be a bit of a different story.

pas 6y ago

It's used for testing. (At least that was the rationale given for the NTP default setting, I guess the same applies for DNS too.) It's sort of a sane/understandable default, considering all the context. Though maybe they could switch to CloudFlare.

jeffbee 6y ago
Cloudflare has a dns privacy policy that is exactly like Google’s but without as many robust internal controls to enforce it. There are reasons to prefer it but a rational risk model isn’t one.
- dundarious 6y ago
  Can you elaborate on these extra internal controls?
  - jeffbee 6y ago
    Google is pretty vocal about how only reviewed, submitted, and hermetically built code can run in production, how they audit such things, how their hardware security module helps them achieve this, etc. Cloudflare has been pretty vocal about the opposite: how they use tons of off-the-shelf software components, vendor firmware, etc. There's no reason to believe that Cloudflare is as able to provide the privacy they promise as Google is.
    - dundarious 6y ago
      Caveat that I am a DNS layman, but I disagree that Google's logging described in https://developers.google.com/speed/public-dns/privacy https://developers.google.com/speed/public-dns/privacy is equivalent to Cloudflare's described in https://developers.cloudflare.com/1.1.1.1/privacy/public-dns-resolver/ https://developers.cloudflare.com/1.1.1.1/privacy/public-dns... Google keeps Permanent Logs and doesn't make it easy for me to see whether that information can be shared and to whom. Cloudflare only stores Public Resolver Logs, deletes them after 25 hours, and acknowledges it shares an anonymized subset of the data only with APNIC Labs. Your comments about build pipeline and firmware are interesting, and to me fall into two rough camps: * preventing bugs from leaking private info: to be honest, I trust neither on this, and I'm more worried about Google being sneaky in its ToS than Cloudflare being sloppy in their dev process. * preventing infiltration from state actors and hackers -- this is a non-goal for me. So for my goal of limiting the power of surveillance capitalism on my life, Cloudflare appears to be a clear winner.

kevin_nisbet 6y ago

I agree, I would find it extremely unintuitive. I'm only scanning the issue at a high level like most others, so it really depends on how systemd presents this information. If it sort of happens in the background with the systemd resolver and shows no DNS servers but queries magically work I would be extremely confused, especially since no upstream resolution is a scenario we see in particular networks with our products. On the other hand, if it does present the servers and it's still configurable, might be a bit of a different story.