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I think the cost of an engineer is way less than 80K in India. Here in the Netherlands a senior SE would be $80K. I see no reason to go to India instead of west
by Avalaxy 6y ago
I think the cost of an engineer is way less than 80K in India. Here in the Netherlands a senior SE would be $80K. I see no reason to go to India instead of western Europe then.
- kareemm 6y agoThe reason is that instead of 300k (or 80k) you're paying less than 80k.
- 0xcafecafe 6y agoI don't think it is "way less". 80K USD converts to 5,979K INR which is about the ballpark estimate some of the senior engineers I know make in India (one of them is working for the Western European company btw). One of the reasons to move to India would be the availability of talent even if it is at comparable cost. Companies like to scale and lack of talent is a risk they want to mitigate.
- rubber_duck 6y agoIn my experience working with outsourcing agencies - "talent available" in India is filling headcount numbers. Good developers ask for similar wages as EU based ones and are equally hard to find, probably even harder because the market is filled with scammers (eg. on several occasions I would interview a competent guy and then the work would clearly get delegated to someone inexperienced)
- 0xcafecafe 6y agoSure, scammers are abound and the bad to good ratio is pretty high but due to the population size, the number of good developers is high as well.
- egh5oon 6y ago> the bad to good ratio is pretty high but due to the population size This is not how ratios work.
- 0xcafecafe 6y agoCan you elaborate why that statement is incorrect? If B/G is high, G/B is low. But if P is a very high number G/B * P must be a decently high number as well.
- rubber_duck 6y agoMy impression from talking with a few people from India working in UK and working with Indian outsourcing agencies/contractors is that India routinely gets cost cutting projects based on price/employee - this creates "coder farms" which breed code farm quality developers + the education system on the whole is inferior (from what I understand India took diploma mills to the next level). So the best talent emigrates because even with the remote option, the increase in life standard and opportunities from emigrating are worth it, and low skill/almost bot level development for rent culture reinforces itself.
- naruvimama 6y agoWhen you pay per hour per head by designation, that is what businesses optimize for - inflation. I have worked in one, 80% of the work is in making the managers both India & American look good to upper management. India is also a huge market for uber.
- luspr 6y agoI am in Germany (where software engineers are ridiculously undervalued) and would consider 80k an underwhelming mid-level salary. According to levels.fyi, salary in the netherlands is quite a bit better.
- foogazi 6y agoWhy is SWE undervalued in Germany? Are other engineering disciplines valued higher?
- hawk_ 6y agoI don't think the kind of engineers that command 300k in valley are to be had in Amsterdam for 80k. In India that's possible.
- illuminati1911 6y agoIndians who are on that level are not going to be in India, but they are already in SV or Europe.
- hawk_ 6y agonot true. it's a huge country and there are so many reasons why people decide not to emigrate particularly with the visa hassles worldwide and evolving startup scene in India.
- bluGill 6y agoMany have returned back home, or got to that level locally and don't want to leave. The Indians I've worked with who returned say they did it because life was easier. Sure they make less money on India, but in India servants come every day to cook and clean (for about 60 cents a day). As one guy said "I know how to cook, but I didn't realize I'd be cooking every meal"
- adwww 6y agoDoes 300k buy talent and experience, or 60 hour weeks and people with no outside interests? The best engineers I've ever worked with were definetly not making that sort of money, mostly because they were the sort of people that didn't like going to interviews and were more interested in tinkering with their side projects and hobbies than competative careers.
- hawk_ 6y agoI very specifically avoided any qualitative judgement on skill in my comment. "Kind" includes all the qualities SV firms are after. Whether they are the best at what they do or not isn't the point.
- 6y ago
- fahrradflucht 6y agoAt least in Germany, $80k salary would mean costs of nearly $100k for the employer because of additional social security payments required. So it really isn't a fair comparison.
- collyw 6y agoWould that translate into a "40k in your pocket" salary? I have heard Germans mention 50% tax before, but no idea how it is implemented.
- fahrradflucht 6y agoFor a single without kids, 50%, meaning 40k in your pocket, is a good rule of thumb, yes.
- collyw 6y agoSo an 80k salary in Germany involves the employee paying 50% and the company paying another 20k on top of that?
- fahrradflucht 6y agoYes. But remember that this includes health insurance, basic retirement, unemployment benefits and so on.
- Audiophilip 6y agoYou can check the exact amounts with this online calculator: https://www.brutto-netto-rechner.info/gehalt/gehaltsrechner-arbeitgeber.php https://www.brutto-netto-rechner.info/gehalt/gehaltsrechner-... Set the "Steuerklasse" to 1 for singles, 3 for married employees.
- namdnay 6y ago> $80k salary would mean costs of nearly $100k for the employer Closer to 150..
- bfieidhbrjr 6y agoYes but Netherlands employees won't do what they're told and are basically unfireable. Not quite as bad as Belgium but not far off.
- the-dude 6y agoWhat do you mean with won't do what they're told ? Disclaimer : am Dutch.
- manuelabeledo 6y agoThey have _rights_ and everything.
- marnett 6y agoLikely the OP means they will not submissively do exclusively what they are told; in a no questions asked, military-style command and control sort of way. More specifically, will answer to ridiculous demands of “we need this by tomorrow.”
- the-dude 6y agoBut tomorrow is my 'dad day' ! papadag : https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/dutch-dads-and-their-papadag/ https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/dutch-dads-and-t...
- user5994461 6y agoWell, you're in for a shock. Fact is Indian employees (working in the main cities in tech companies) are paid more than European employees (besides London and Switzerland). Companies should be outsourcing to Europe, not to India. I've seen that consistently across companies in the past decade. Europe salaries have been stagnating while India and China can be growing 10% a year. The gap, assuming there was one 20 years ago, didn't last long.
- naruvimama 6y agoAn engineer at 80K in Europe would be working on their own. Whereas in India they could be running a team, so much greater leverage.