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Why is this repeatedly raised? This is only done like this for development purposes. It has been discussed for years at this point. Distros/users are encourage

by kd913 6y ago

Why is this repeatedly raised? This is only done like this for development purposes. It has been discussed for years at this point. Distros/users are encouraged to change these defaults and many do. Seems pretty clear cut and simple to me.

fartcannon 6y ago
Probably because it shows the character of the systemd devs.
- kd913 6y ago
  I can imagine it getting a little frustrating to have to constantly reiterate the same point over and over again. Especially when people are refusing to understand the reasoning and logic explained from last time. It's already been explained, a quick duckduckgo search can show quickly what the reasons are and why the whole privacy argument is irrelevant here.
  - fartcannon 6y ago
    Easy fix! Just change it or dont set it at all. Instead, he chooses drama.
    - kd913 6y ago
      He chose the option that was the fastest for development purposes/testing. On average Google/Cloudflare worldwide has the fastest and most reliable DNS services. Why would he change it? He says it clearly that it's the responsibility of distro maintainers to modify these defaults which they are encouraged to do. It's everyone else who is choosing drama. This is for development purposes, the entire privacy argument is completely irrelevant.
      - fartcannon 6y ago
        If it's so irrelevant, then why _not_ change it? That's what good leaders do. Small price to pay to get good will and a large group of bystanders on your side. His way generates conspiracy and alienation.
        kd913 6y ago
        Because all of the alternatives are simply less reliable, less performant, less available and offer no benefits for development/testing. That is the only factor that matters here. >That's what good leaders do. Small price to pay to get good will and a large group of bystanders on your side. I don't think he cares about people who are determined to stay ignorant. Especially of those who refuse to comprehend the needs/use cases for different parties. Frankly considering he has received death threats about systemd, I am surprised he even put a response at this point. It would make sense to me if he just closed the ticket immediately with a link to the previous discussion.
        fartcannon 6y ago
        Sure, he doesn't care, and so then this happens. We happen. Drama.
        kd913 6y ago
        The only factor here that matters is development/testing. Drama is irrelevant and wouldn't change anything. At worst, he gets his issue tracker filled. If it bothers you, then the only thing that you can do is change to Devuan or don't use systemd-networkd/systemd-resolved. Distros are going to continue using systemd irrespective of this nonsense drama.
        yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
        > It would make sense to me if he just closed the ticket immediately with a link to the previous discussion. That would have been overwhelmingly preferable to > Christ, what's next? You accuse us of controlling people's minds with vaccinations we get directly from Bill Gates? And that systemd uses 5G to spread CoV-2? , yes!
- munchbunny 6y ago
  I hope if I were in the maintainer's shoes I wouldn't have raised my hackles quite as quickly, but speaking as anyone responsible for making any decisions that might be unpopular, it does get pretty tiring when someone very quickly reaches for the good old "I'm not saying you're a shill, I'm just asking if you're a shill." The part of the comment in question: With the above response, might I ask the developers a question: has this project received any donations from Google?
- pas 6y ago
  It also shows how many people are coaching from the sidelines so to speak. Although the decision theoretically affects them, they shouldn't constantly nag the maintainers. (Not respecting their decision is not a sign of great character either.)
wolrah 6y ago
> Distros/users are encouraged to change these defaults and many do. Haven't we learned enough over the years from projects like PHP and MySQL that having defaults "for developers" and expecting them to be changed for production use is a terrible idea? The defaults should be sane, secure, and privacy-forward for the majority of users. If such defaults can't be agreed upon, there should be no defaults and the users should be forced to set it appropriately for their needs. --- Personally I gave in to the Google monster years ago so it doesn't bother me, but I can certainly see why a lot of people would find these defaults concerning. Beyond that, I definitely agree with those who are pointing out that the fallback behavior altogether is undesirable. If my chosen DNS servers fail to respond I don't want my system to go out and try some other random servers, I want it to indicate a failure and let me fix it.

by kd913 6y ago

fartcannon 6y ago

Probably because it shows the character of the systemd devs.

kd913 6y ago
I can imagine it getting a little frustrating to have to constantly reiterate the same point over and over again. Especially when people are refusing to understand the reasoning and logic explained from last time. It's already been explained, a quick duckduckgo search can show quickly what the reasons are and why the whole privacy argument is irrelevant here.
- fartcannon 6y ago
  Easy fix! Just change it or dont set it at all. Instead, he chooses drama.
  - kd913 6y ago
    He chose the option that was the fastest for development purposes/testing. On average Google/Cloudflare worldwide has the fastest and most reliable DNS services. Why would he change it? He says it clearly that it's the responsibility of distro maintainers to modify these defaults which they are encouraged to do. It's everyone else who is choosing drama. This is for development purposes, the entire privacy argument is completely irrelevant.
    - fartcannon 6y ago
      If it's so irrelevant, then why _not_ change it? That's what good leaders do. Small price to pay to get good will and a large group of bystanders on your side. His way generates conspiracy and alienation.
      - kd913 6y ago
        Because all of the alternatives are simply less reliable, less performant, less available and offer no benefits for development/testing. That is the only factor that matters here. >That's what good leaders do. Small price to pay to get good will and a large group of bystanders on your side. I don't think he cares about people who are determined to stay ignorant. Especially of those who refuse to comprehend the needs/use cases for different parties. Frankly considering he has received death threats about systemd, I am surprised he even put a response at this point. It would make sense to me if he just closed the ticket immediately with a link to the previous discussion.
        fartcannon 6y ago
        Sure, he doesn't care, and so then this happens. We happen. Drama.
        kd913 6y ago
        The only factor here that matters is development/testing. Drama is irrelevant and wouldn't change anything. At worst, he gets his issue tracker filled. If it bothers you, then the only thing that you can do is change to Devuan or don't use systemd-networkd/systemd-resolved. Distros are going to continue using systemd irrespective of this nonsense drama.
        yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
        > It would make sense to me if he just closed the ticket immediately with a link to the previous discussion. That would have been overwhelmingly preferable to > Christ, what's next? You accuse us of controlling people's minds with vaccinations we get directly from Bill Gates? And that systemd uses 5G to spread CoV-2? , yes!
munchbunny 6y ago
I hope if I were in the maintainer's shoes I wouldn't have raised my hackles quite as quickly, but speaking as anyone responsible for making any decisions that might be unpopular, it does get pretty tiring when someone very quickly reaches for the good old "I'm not saying you're a shill, I'm just asking if you're a shill." The part of the comment in question: With the above response, might I ask the developers a question: has this project received any donations from Google?
pas 6y ago
It also shows how many people are coaching from the sidelines so to speak. Although the decision theoretically affects them, they shouldn't constantly nag the maintainers. (Not respecting their decision is not a sign of great character either.)

wolrah 6y ago

> Distros/users are encouraged to change these defaults and many do. Haven't we learned enough over the years from projects like PHP and MySQL that having defaults "for developers" and expecting them to be changed for production use is a terrible idea? The defaults should be sane, secure, and privacy-forward for the majority of users. If such defaults can't be agreed upon, there should be no defaults and the users should be forced to set it appropriately for their needs. --- Personally I gave in to the Google monster years ago so it doesn't bother me, but I can certainly see why a lot of people would find these defaults concerning. Beyond that, I definitely agree with those who are pointing out that the fallback behavior altogether is undesirable. If my chosen DNS servers fail to respond I don't want my system to go out and try some other random servers, I want it to indicate a failure and let me fix it.