3 ms·

I personally find the 'email abandoned carts' behavior to be a dark pattern

Alupis 6y ago
Dark pattern or not, it's super effective - particularly when accompanied with a coupon ;) Besides, the user is opting-in to receiving these emails. They don't have to provide an email address - so some are probably playing the game and seeing if they get a coupon or not. As an aside - if the internet worked the way SV hipster brogrammers thought it should work, nobody would use it. Yes, ads are crazy effective - you can ignore or block them, we don't care because enough people don't block them and are happy to click. Yes, emails are crazy effective - you can ignore or opt-out or never opt-in, we don't care, you just cost us money if you're not engaged anyway so we'd rather you not be on our mailing list.
- cortesoft 6y ago
  So you are saying these bot accounts have opted in to receiving emails? You don't validate the email when someone signs up?
  - Alupis 6y ago
    The site terms and conditions are displayed very publicaly and accessible to anyone who cares to read them. By entering your email address you are opting-in for transaction related emails, including new order confirmations, shipment notifications, and yes cart reminders. It's spelled out for you. It's the same for almost every ecommerce site. That's different than marketing emails, which require a separate explicit opt-in - ie. the user has to go and type their email address into another form and click "Sign up". It doesn't get any more transparent than that. Don't call something a dark pattern just because you can't be bothered to understand what you're consenting to when using someone else's website and start entering information like your email address or more. That's entirely on you.
    - cortesoft 6y ago
      I am not sure what your conception of a dark pattern is, but the idea that adding something to a TOS means it can't be a dark pattern is simply false. The whole concept of a dark pattern is about UX choices that lead people to agree to things that they don't actually want; it isn't about whether you break your TOS or not. I am saying, I think that if you asked people point blank "do you want websites to email you reminders if you leave something in the cart?", most people (myself included) would say, "no, I don't want to get that email" You can put whatever you want in the TOS, but it doesn't mean users like it, and a user agreeing to something doesn't mean they like all the things they are agreeing to. Whether it is "on me" or not, it is still a dark pattern. Also, as a user entering my email, I am not promising you that I will always accept email to that address from you. If you try to send me email and I reject it, that is 'on you' to deal with what that rejection does to your spam scores.
      - Alupis 6y ago
        That's a one-time rejection, and is rightfully treated like an unsubscribe request. No harm done to either party - and the merchant is actually happy since we don't want to bother you. Guess what? Angry customers don't buy your products. Seems intuitive. You might think people don't want these emails just because you don't want these emails. That's pretty biased. Ask any ecommerce company - these emails, both marketing and transactional, are wanted by most people shopping on the site. The statistics simply prove your argument is false. This is a common theme among techies. You don't like something... say ads... so you assume nobody should like them and they should be done away with entirely. That's an absurdly short view of the world.
        cortesoft 6y ago
        I never said no one wants them; I was very careful to say that I considered it a dark pattern, not that it was a certain dark pattern. Also, I don't think any amount of statistics is going to be able to show you if people truly want emails or ads... just because they increase sales doesn't mean people want them. Ads can be both effective and unwanted.

Dark pattern or not, it's super effective - particularly when accompanied with a coupon ;) Besides, the user is opting-in to receiving these emails. They don't have to provide an email address - so some are probably playing the game and seeing if they get a coupon or not. As an aside - if the internet worked the way SV hipster brogrammers thought it should work, nobody would use it. Yes, ads are crazy effective - you can ignore or block them, we don't care because enough people don't block them and are happy to click. Yes, emails are crazy effective - you can ignore or opt-out or never opt-in, we don't care, you just cost us money if you're not engaged anyway so we'd rather you not be on our mailing list.

cortesoft 6y ago
So you are saying these bot accounts have opted in to receiving emails? You don't validate the email when someone signs up?
- Alupis 6y ago
  The site terms and conditions are displayed very publicaly and accessible to anyone who cares to read them. By entering your email address you are opting-in for transaction related emails, including new order confirmations, shipment notifications, and yes cart reminders. It's spelled out for you. It's the same for almost every ecommerce site. That's different than marketing emails, which require a separate explicit opt-in - ie. the user has to go and type their email address into another form and click "Sign up". It doesn't get any more transparent than that. Don't call something a dark pattern just because you can't be bothered to understand what you're consenting to when using someone else's website and start entering information like your email address or more. That's entirely on you.
  - cortesoft 6y ago
    I am not sure what your conception of a dark pattern is, but the idea that adding something to a TOS means it can't be a dark pattern is simply false. The whole concept of a dark pattern is about UX choices that lead people to agree to things that they don't actually want; it isn't about whether you break your TOS or not. I am saying, I think that if you asked people point blank "do you want websites to email you reminders if you leave something in the cart?", most people (myself included) would say, "no, I don't want to get that email" You can put whatever you want in the TOS, but it doesn't mean users like it, and a user agreeing to something doesn't mean they like all the things they are agreeing to. Whether it is "on me" or not, it is still a dark pattern. Also, as a user entering my email, I am not promising you that I will always accept email to that address from you. If you try to send me email and I reject it, that is 'on you' to deal with what that rejection does to your spam scores.
    - Alupis 6y ago
      That's a one-time rejection, and is rightfully treated like an unsubscribe request. No harm done to either party - and the merchant is actually happy since we don't want to bother you. Guess what? Angry customers don't buy your products. Seems intuitive. You might think people don't want these emails just because you don't want these emails. That's pretty biased. Ask any ecommerce company - these emails, both marketing and transactional, are wanted by most people shopping on the site. The statistics simply prove your argument is false. This is a common theme among techies. You don't like something... say ads... so you assume nobody should like them and they should be done away with entirely. That's an absurdly short view of the world.
      - cortesoft 6y ago
        I never said no one wants them; I was very careful to say that I considered it a dark pattern, not that it was a certain dark pattern. Also, I don't think any amount of statistics is going to be able to show you if people truly want emails or ads... just because they increase sales doesn't mean people want them. Ads can be both effective and unwanted.