6 ms·

I like the speeding analogy. "I have nothing to hide" "Have you ever sped on the highway?" "Well, yes" "Imagine if the government reveals it's been tracking

I like the speeding analogy. "I have nothing to hide" "Have you ever sped on the highway?" "Well, yes" "Imagine if the government reveals it's been tracking everyone's speed, and has decided to write everyone tickets for speeding." "That's insane, the government can't do that!" "Exactly"

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
esrauch 6y ago
I don't know, tracking everyone's speed to issue tickets doesn't sound nearly as bad as having a recording of 100% of all remote conversations.
- tintor 6y ago
  Speed with location, as speed limit depends on where you are driving, which is tracking of your movement.
- webmaven 6y ago
  What if they issue retroactive speeding tickets all at once for the last 10 years?
  - esrauch 6y ago
    I mean, up to the legal statute of limitations they can do that right (eg if they had speed camera recordings that they realized were accidentally unreviewed, they could use those and issue tickets without it being much of a morality issue). It is maybe unfair because of a sudden burden and no ability to change your behavior before it added up to a huge sum, but it doesn't seem to have anything to do with privacy.
  - jcwayne 6y ago
    With failure to pay eventually landing you in jail.
golem14 6y ago
I say, no need to look at hypotheticals. Just sit back and watch what the Chinese government likely has done with the social media posts from people in Hong Kong, who are now in a desperate rush to obliterate them. Tough look, those have already been crawled and indexed. It's not quite the same, because these social media posts weren't meant to be private at the time, but it illustrates the point what can happen when 'data is out there'.
- cgriswald 6y ago
  Americans have a sense that what happens in China (or Nazi Germany, or any other place you'd care to name) can't possibly happen here—even if it is currently happening here. Gone are the days during the Cold War where you could say, "What is this, Soviet Russia?" and have anyone squirm at the comparison.
  - dredmorbius 6y ago
    What happened in Nazi Germany was actively and continuously facilitated and supported by an American technology company under contract. The numbers tattooed on Holocaust prisoners' arms were IBM data identifiers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_during_World_War_II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_during_World_War_II
- square_usual 6y ago
  Closer to the US, prominent activists for Mexico's soda tax were targets of a campaign to hack their phones with NSO's exploits, and given NSO only sells to governments and the Mexican government is a known NSO client, it is very likely they were targeted by the government itself: https://citizenlab.ca/2017/02/bittersweet-nso-mexico-spyware/ https://citizenlab.ca/2017/02/bittersweet-nso-mexico-spyware...
jay_kyburz 6y ago
This is not a good analogy because if you speed on the highway you are putting other peoples lives at risk, and doing it in public. I think we probably should have a satellite tracking every car and issuing a ticket as soon as a car speeds.
- snicky 6y ago
  Oh yeah? And what if there are no other cars on the highway?
  - jay_kyburz 6y ago
    Killing yourself is still a cost to society. People have to come out and scrape you off the road, put all your bits in a box and bury you.
    - bigwavedave 6y ago
      Hard to collect more taxes if you're dead.
    - kube-system 6y ago
      It is also worth noting that 'speeding' has only a very rough correlation with risky driving behavior. A road that meets MUTCD standards is usually guaranteed to have at least 15% of drivers speeding on it by design.
      - jay_kyburz 6y ago
        You got me interested in the subject so I did some searching. This document, while doesn't address speed as a factor of accidents directly, does seems to show that speed cameras do push down Australia's fatality rate on the roads. (I'm Australian) https://www.bitre.gov.au/publications/2010/is_039 https://www.bitre.gov.au/publications/2010/is_039
        kube-system 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

esrauch 6y ago

I don't know, tracking everyone's speed to issue tickets doesn't sound nearly as bad as having a recording of 100% of all remote conversations.

tintor 6y ago
Speed with location, as speed limit depends on where you are driving, which is tracking of your movement.
webmaven 6y ago
What if they issue retroactive speeding tickets all at once for the last 10 years?
- esrauch 6y ago
  I mean, up to the legal statute of limitations they can do that right (eg if they had speed camera recordings that they realized were accidentally unreviewed, they could use those and issue tickets without it being much of a morality issue). It is maybe unfair because of a sudden burden and no ability to change your behavior before it added up to a huge sum, but it doesn't seem to have anything to do with privacy.
- jcwayne 6y ago
  With failure to pay eventually landing you in jail.

golem14 6y ago

I say, no need to look at hypotheticals. Just sit back and watch what the Chinese government likely has done with the social media posts from people in Hong Kong, who are now in a desperate rush to obliterate them. Tough look, those have already been crawled and indexed. It's not quite the same, because these social media posts weren't meant to be private at the time, but it illustrates the point what can happen when 'data is out there'.

cgriswald 6y ago
Americans have a sense that what happens in China (or Nazi Germany, or any other place you'd care to name) can't possibly happen here—even if it is currently happening here. Gone are the days during the Cold War where you could say, "What is this, Soviet Russia?" and have anyone squirm at the comparison.
- dredmorbius 6y ago
  What happened in Nazi Germany was actively and continuously facilitated and supported by an American technology company under contract. The numbers tattooed on Holocaust prisoners' arms were IBM data identifiers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_during_World_War_II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_during_World_War_II
square_usual 6y ago
Closer to the US, prominent activists for Mexico's soda tax were targets of a campaign to hack their phones with NSO's exploits, and given NSO only sells to governments and the Mexican government is a known NSO client, it is very likely they were targeted by the government itself: https://citizenlab.ca/2017/02/bittersweet-nso-mexico-spyware/ https://citizenlab.ca/2017/02/bittersweet-nso-mexico-spyware...

jay_kyburz 6y ago

This is not a good analogy because if you speed on the highway you are putting other peoples lives at risk, and doing it in public. I think we probably should have a satellite tracking every car and issuing a ticket as soon as a car speeds.

snicky 6y ago
Oh yeah? And what if there are no other cars on the highway?
- jay_kyburz 6y ago
  Killing yourself is still a cost to society. People have to come out and scrape you off the road, put all your bits in a box and bury you.
  - bigwavedave 6y ago
    Hard to collect more taxes if you're dead.
  - kube-system 6y ago
    It is also worth noting that 'speeding' has only a very rough correlation with risky driving behavior. A road that meets MUTCD standards is usually guaranteed to have at least 15% of drivers speeding on it by design.
    - jay_kyburz 6y ago
      You got me interested in the subject so I did some searching. This document, while doesn't address speed as a factor of accidents directly, does seems to show that speed cameras do push down Australia's fatality rate on the roads. (I'm Australian) https://www.bitre.gov.au/publications/2010/is_039 https://www.bitre.gov.au/publications/2010/is_039
      - kube-system 6y ago