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(1) - What is the point of this comparison? (2) - Different discussion -- let's assume for sake of argument we are talking about a young healthy person anyways

(1) - What is the point of this comparison? (2) - Different discussion -- let's assume for sake of argument we are talking about a young healthy person anyways. (3) - Sales tax is "almost nothing"? With respect, this reply is coming off as completely out of touch with someone who can barely afford rent, food, gas and the many "poor taxes".

ciarannolan 6y ago
I agree that "It’s definitely a livable salary for a young person in a low cost of living area." is a laughable claim. But, it is true that most Americans pay very little taxes. > According to the Tax Foundation, the top 50% of taxpayers paid 96.96% of all federal income taxes in 2016, the last tax year for which comprehensive and vetted statistics are available from the Internal Revenue Service. This means that the bottom 50% paid just 3.04%. [1] And yes, sales tax is "almost nothing". About 2-3% of an average American household's total income. > With that in mind, the average American pays $10,489 in "personal taxes," representing 14% of the average household's total income. This includes federal and state income taxes, as well as other taxes such as personal property taxes, vehicle taxes, and certain other small taxes. $8,367 of this amount is federal income taxes, $2,046 is state and local taxes, and $75 is other small taxes. [2] [1] https://www.thebalance.com/what-the-average-american-pays-in-taxes-4768594 https://www.thebalance.com/what-the-average-american-pays-in... [2] https://www.fool.com/taxes/2018/04/22/how-much-does-the-average-american-pay-in-taxes.aspx https://www.fool.com/taxes/2018/04/22/how-much-does-the-aver...
- pphysch 6y ago
  I agree with your points--my point is that any % of someone's wealth who _can_barely_afford_basic_living_costs_ is significant. Income tax isn't even remotely on someone's mind who can't make ends meet. Sales tax _is_ neglible for most wealthy people so it is easy for them to forget about it and massively overrate the impact of income tax on non-wealthy people.
  - ciarannolan 6y ago
    If you can barely make ends meet, you do not pay income taxes in America. In fact, you get free money from the federal government once a year via the standard deduction rather than paying them. If you're scraping by on, say, $500/month after rent is paid, $10 of that on sales taxes is insignificant imo.
    - pphysch 6y ago
      Excepting rent, the remaining wages are going to go towards things that are more likely to have a sales tax. For most states that is ~5%. An extra Jackson a month adds up quick for someone in this position.
- clairity 6y ago
  > "But, it is true that most Americans pay very little taxes." no, that statment is only applicable to income tax, which is intentionally progressive. most other taxes, like employment taxes, are highly regressive, so it's not true that most americans pay "very little taxes". americans pay their fair share of taxes, but not the same proportion to each taxing entity.
  - ciarannolan 6y ago
    No, that statement is applicable to all taxes. Look at my second quote and its link. The average American household pays about 5-7% of its income in taxes other than income tax. I think that qualifies as "very little".
    - clairity 6y ago
      no, the trope that most people are freeloaders who don't pay taxes needs to end. even the lowest quintile paid an average of 16% of their income in various taxes. for someone making $14K, that 16% ($2200) is a serious cut of their living. for comparison, the upper quintiles pay ~30%. see this chart[0] found in this article[1]. [0] https://itep.org/wp-content/uploads/WPTiAgraph2.jpg https://itep.org/wp-content/uploads/WPTiAgraph2.jpg [1] https://itep.org/who-pays-taxes-in-america-in-2018/ https://itep.org/who-pays-taxes-in-america-in-2018/
rayiner 6y ago
> (1) - What is the point of this comparison? France is a wealthy, highly developed country with strong labor laws. Cost of living in France certainly isn’t cheaper than the US. > (2) - Different discussion -- let's assume for sake of argument we are talking about a young healthy person anyways. You should have insurance, and the ACA made it affordable (the government pays 80% of the premium for some at income). > (3) - Sales tax is "almost nothing"? You don’t pay sales tax on rent. I live in a civilized state, so you don’t pay sales tax on groceries and clothes either. > With respect, this reply is coming off as completely out of touch with someone who can barely afford rent, food, gas The point is that someone making $10 working 40 hours in a low cost of living place probably isn’t one of those people who can “barely afford rent, food, and gas.” Which goes back to OP’s question: why focus on who is working? Because people who don’t have work or don’t have sufficient hours are the people who are really struggling to afford rent, food, etc. The people who are out of touch are the ones who apply their SF or NYC-warped glasses to the vast majority of the country that isn’t SF or NYC. I was in Clear Lake Iowa, which is what passes for a tourist destination in Iowa. You can get a 2BR apartment for $650/month. Someone making $10/hour there who is single with a roommate has a perfectly reasonable life. No, $10/hour jobs won’t support a kid or pay for daycare. If that’s the concern, the government should pay people who have kids and provide free daycare. That’s also a perfectly reasonable approach.
- user5994461 6y ago
  >>> France is a wealthy, highly developed country with strong labor laws. Cost of living in France certainly isn’t cheaper than the US. Pretty sure the cost of living is quite a bit cheaper in France. - Education is free. - Basic healthcare is free. Little known fact is that private coverage is mandatory in France and paid out of pocket. It's double digits a month instead of three in the US. - Bills are cheaper. internet/phone/mobile/tv is fixed 35 a month with all providers while the US subjects on hacker news are routinely throwing all sort of crazy numbers for these. similar advantage with water. electricity depends on the US region. - gas is very expensive in France. One litter is roughly the price of one gallon (3 litters). People don't travel as much and cities have must stronger public transportation (bus, tube, tramway, trains). - Decent food and items are easier and cheaper to procure in France. Highly discounted food is similar I think (meaning lidl/netto can do cheap shit in volume like wallmart). Overall French have a lot less money than American. The vast majority of the country is living on 1000-2000 euro salary a month after tax (outside Paris). There's nobody that's routinely making triple or quadruple of anybody else, so anything expensive simply has no audience. The rent for a 2 bedrooms in the top major cities (toulouse/lyon with one million inhabitants and jobs) is 600-700 euro I'd say. The same rent in deep countryside with no jobs could be closer to 400 euro. Rents typically don't go below 400 (or 300 each for shared) because there are many too subsidies and benefits for people in need. I don't know what is clear lake iowa to compare, is it small city or truly the middle of nowhere?

ciarannolan 6y ago

I agree that "It’s definitely a livable salary for a young person in a low cost of living area." is a laughable claim. But, it is true that most Americans pay very little taxes. > According to the Tax Foundation, the top 50% of taxpayers paid 96.96% of all federal income taxes in 2016, the last tax year for which comprehensive and vetted statistics are available from the Internal Revenue Service. This means that the bottom 50% paid just 3.04%. [1] And yes, sales tax is "almost nothing". About 2-3% of an average American household's total income. > With that in mind, the average American pays $10,489 in "personal taxes," representing 14% of the average household's total income. This includes federal and state income taxes, as well as other taxes such as personal property taxes, vehicle taxes, and certain other small taxes. $8,367 of this amount is federal income taxes, $2,046 is state and local taxes, and $75 is other small taxes. [2] [1] https://www.thebalance.com/what-the-average-american-pays-in-taxes-4768594 https://www.thebalance.com/what-the-average-american-pays-in... [2] https://www.fool.com/taxes/2018/04/22/how-much-does-the-average-american-pay-in-taxes.aspx https://www.fool.com/taxes/2018/04/22/how-much-does-the-aver...

pphysch 6y ago
I agree with your points--my point is that any % of someone's wealth who _can_barely_afford_basic_living_costs_ is significant. Income tax isn't even remotely on someone's mind who can't make ends meet. Sales tax _is_ neglible for most wealthy people so it is easy for them to forget about it and massively overrate the impact of income tax on non-wealthy people.
- ciarannolan 6y ago
  If you can barely make ends meet, you do not pay income taxes in America. In fact, you get free money from the federal government once a year via the standard deduction rather than paying them. If you're scraping by on, say, $500/month after rent is paid, $10 of that on sales taxes is insignificant imo.
  - pphysch 6y ago
    Excepting rent, the remaining wages are going to go towards things that are more likely to have a sales tax. For most states that is ~5%. An extra Jackson a month adds up quick for someone in this position.
clairity 6y ago
> "But, it is true that most Americans pay very little taxes." no, that statment is only applicable to income tax, which is intentionally progressive. most other taxes, like employment taxes, are highly regressive, so it's not true that most americans pay "very little taxes". americans pay their fair share of taxes, but not the same proportion to each taxing entity.
- ciarannolan 6y ago
  No, that statement is applicable to all taxes. Look at my second quote and its link. The average American household pays about 5-7% of its income in taxes other than income tax. I think that qualifies as "very little".
  - clairity 6y ago
    no, the trope that most people are freeloaders who don't pay taxes needs to end. even the lowest quintile paid an average of 16% of their income in various taxes. for someone making $14K, that 16% ($2200) is a serious cut of their living. for comparison, the upper quintiles pay ~30%. see this chart[0] found in this article[1]. [0] https://itep.org/wp-content/uploads/WPTiAgraph2.jpg https://itep.org/wp-content/uploads/WPTiAgraph2.jpg [1] https://itep.org/who-pays-taxes-in-america-in-2018/ https://itep.org/who-pays-taxes-in-america-in-2018/

rayiner 6y ago

> (1) - What is the point of this comparison? France is a wealthy, highly developed country with strong labor laws. Cost of living in France certainly isn’t cheaper than the US. > (2) - Different discussion -- let's assume for sake of argument we are talking about a young healthy person anyways. You should have insurance, and the ACA made it affordable (the government pays 80% of the premium for some at income). > (3) - Sales tax is "almost nothing"? You don’t pay sales tax on rent. I live in a civilized state, so you don’t pay sales tax on groceries and clothes either. > With respect, this reply is coming off as completely out of touch with someone who can barely afford rent, food, gas The point is that someone making $10 working 40 hours in a low cost of living place probably isn’t one of those people who can “barely afford rent, food, and gas.” Which goes back to OP’s question: why focus on who is working? Because people who don’t have work or don’t have sufficient hours are the people who are really struggling to afford rent, food, etc. The people who are out of touch are the ones who apply their SF or NYC-warped glasses to the vast majority of the country that isn’t SF or NYC. I was in Clear Lake Iowa, which is what passes for a tourist destination in Iowa. You can get a 2BR apartment for $650/month. Someone making $10/hour there who is single with a roommate has a perfectly reasonable life. No, $10/hour jobs won’t support a kid or pay for daycare. If that’s the concern, the government should pay people who have kids and provide free daycare. That’s also a perfectly reasonable approach.

user5994461 6y ago
>>> France is a wealthy, highly developed country with strong labor laws. Cost of living in France certainly isn’t cheaper than the US. Pretty sure the cost of living is quite a bit cheaper in France. - Education is free. - Basic healthcare is free. Little known fact is that private coverage is mandatory in France and paid out of pocket. It's double digits a month instead of three in the US. - Bills are cheaper. internet/phone/mobile/tv is fixed 35 a month with all providers while the US subjects on hacker news are routinely throwing all sort of crazy numbers for these. similar advantage with water. electricity depends on the US region. - gas is very expensive in France. One litter is roughly the price of one gallon (3 litters). People don't travel as much and cities have must stronger public transportation (bus, tube, tramway, trains). - Decent food and items are easier and cheaper to procure in France. Highly discounted food is similar I think (meaning lidl/netto can do cheap shit in volume like wallmart). Overall French have a lot less money than American. The vast majority of the country is living on 1000-2000 euro salary a month after tax (outside Paris). There's nobody that's routinely making triple or quadruple of anybody else, so anything expensive simply has no audience. The rent for a 2 bedrooms in the top major cities (toulouse/lyon with one million inhabitants and jobs) is 600-700 euro I'd say. The same rent in deep countryside with no jobs could be closer to 400 euro. Rents typically don't go below 400 (or 300 each for shared) because there are many too subsidies and benefits for people in need. I don't know what is clear lake iowa to compare, is it small city or truly the middle of nowhere?