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Cool! I plan on supporting BuildPacks eventually in my project - unfortunately the goal is teaching developers DevOps best practices and Kubernetes concepts - s

Cool! I plan on supporting BuildPacks eventually in my project - unfortunately the goal is teaching developers DevOps best practices and Kubernetes concepts - so build packs is a bit too down the rabbit hole compared to generating a Dockerfile. Eventually tho, buildpacks are exciting!

jacques_chester 6y ago
I'm biased, but I disagree about the balance of rabbit hole depths. Generating good Dockerfiles is harder than it looks and, in my experience, folks more or less wind up reimplementing Buildpack-like logic anyhow. All you need to do is type `pack build` and someone else solves it. I've always liked that experience, going back to `cf push` and Heroku.
- erulabs 6y ago
  Yes, but buildpacks and Heroku have a similarity: incredibly simple to do the simple thing, incredibly opaque to do the complex thing. With a dockerfile, people can just install what they need. Sure - it could potentially be more efficient, but I like to focus on human efficiency rather than machine efficiency. Happy developers > fast CI systems :)
  - jacques_chester 6y ago
    But Cloud Native Buildpacks are intended for the happiness of humans as well as machines. They can update an image faster than docker build can, because of careful selection of layers and by performing operations directly against a registry (rebasing). A developer can achieve some the same things with artfully-designed Dockerfiles, but then they're back to "what buildpacks can already do for me". CNBs are a ground-up redesign of buildpacks, taking advantage of new foundations, with specific efforts to remedy the things that used to suck. They're composible instead of being giant monoliths, they update super fast and then you still get all the other niceties you used to have. Plus someone else maintains them and you'll never need to run a zillion rebuilds for every CVE that affects your OS, it's a simple rebase operation. In my wildly biased opinion, I think they are worth another look, once you find time.
    - erulabs 6y ago
      Oh I agree with you - build packs are excellent! It's more about introducing one technology at a time. People who know about cloud native build packs typically don't need help writing dockerfiles or getting going on Kubernetes. On step at a time is all :)

jacques_chester 6y ago

I'm biased, but I disagree about the balance of rabbit hole depths. Generating good Dockerfiles is harder than it looks and, in my experience, folks more or less wind up reimplementing Buildpack-like logic anyhow. All you need to do is type `pack build` and someone else solves it. I've always liked that experience, going back to `cf push` and Heroku.

erulabs 6y ago
Yes, but buildpacks and Heroku have a similarity: incredibly simple to do the simple thing, incredibly opaque to do the complex thing. With a dockerfile, people can just install what they need. Sure - it could potentially be more efficient, but I like to focus on human efficiency rather than machine efficiency. Happy developers > fast CI systems :)
- jacques_chester 6y ago
  But Cloud Native Buildpacks are intended for the happiness of humans as well as machines. They can update an image faster than docker build can, because of careful selection of layers and by performing operations directly against a registry (rebasing). A developer can achieve some the same things with artfully-designed Dockerfiles, but then they're back to "what buildpacks can already do for me". CNBs are a ground-up redesign of buildpacks, taking advantage of new foundations, with specific efforts to remedy the things that used to suck. They're composible instead of being giant monoliths, they update super fast and then you still get all the other niceties you used to have. Plus someone else maintains them and you'll never need to run a zillion rebuilds for every CVE that affects your OS, it's a simple rebase operation. In my wildly biased opinion, I think they are worth another look, once you find time.
  - erulabs 6y ago
    Oh I agree with you - build packs are excellent! It's more about introducing one technology at a time. People who know about cloud native build packs typically don't need help writing dockerfiles or getting going on Kubernetes. On step at a time is all :)