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I live in Vancouver. The pattern for many Hong Kong immigrants is to have the mother and children live in Canada while the father works in HK.The family doesn'

by 99_00 6y ago

I live in Vancouver. The pattern for many Hong Kong immigrants is to have the mother and children live in Canada while the father works in HK.The family doesn't declare the foreign income in Canada. So they enjoy the benefits of a low tax HK income. And they get all the nice things that go with living in high tax Canada while not contributing to it -free healthcare, subsided University, safe communities, clean environment, low income benefits. It's so common it has a name, satalite family/astronaut dad. This isn't a good deal for Canada and Canadians. https://vancouversun.com/news/staff-blogs/the-unsettled-lives-of-wealthy-transnational-migrants/ https://vancouversun.com/news/staff-blogs/the-unsettled-live...

tmaly 6y ago
It's also not a good deal for the kids who do not get to see their father.
sterlind 6y ago
If the dad stays an astronaut, he will get lost in space once China finishes engulfing HK. I don't think HKers are going to be as worried about reducing their tax rates as staying free right now..
- 99_00 6y ago
  The whole reason for getting Canadian citizenship is for the day that China engulfs HK and they want to leave. China isn't going to restrict the movement of hundreds of thousands of foreigners legally living in HK. 300,000 Canadians living in HK right now.
  - magicsmoke 6y ago
    Yep, the CCP is going after political dissidents. Expats that keep their head down while making money in HK aren't going to be affected.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > China isn't going to restrict the movement of hundreds of thousands of foreigners legally living in HK. At least, they are less likely to do so than they are people who aren’t foreigners, although even them I wouldn’t want to bet my life on it. China ending the two-systems arrangement in Hong Kong despite the Joint Declaration is basically saying “As far as HK (and, implicitly, anything we consider Chinese territory) is concerned, we aren't concerned about what other countries think, or international law or agreements, only power.”
    - pinkfoot 6y ago
      Now you know how Iran feels :)
      - dragonwriter 6y ago
        Well, not just Iran—the US does the same thing pretty blatantly a lot, and it's pretty much Israel’s only mode of operation. There's an argument that it's essentially all of international politics, masked by the fact that most countries, on all but the most existential issues, see the power vs interest calculus as favoring adhering to consensus international law and direct agreements.
dennisgorelik 6y ago
> mother and children live in Canada When these children grow up - they will pay taxes in Canada. It looks like a good deal for Canada. Even if father's income is taxed in Hong Kong only.
- koheripbal 6y ago
  It would be an even better deal if the father worked in Canada and paid Canadian taxes. Besides, you are assuming that the children of this tax evader aren't going to figure out some other method of avoiding Canadian taxes - like doing literally exactly the same thing.
- refurb 6y ago
  Are you sure? Or maybe they'll go work in Hong Kong too with the knowledge their Canadian passport gives them a nice escape plan.
- 99_00 6y ago
  It isn't a good deal for Canadians because we can get immigrants that will contribute to Canada, pay taxes, and have children who will do the same. And many of the children of Hk immigrants will go back to HK to earn more money. They will do whatever is in their best interest.
  - foogazi 6y ago
    > They will do whatever is in their best interest. Just like every other living being
    - mistermann 6y ago
      At the individual level, yes. But at the aggregate level, certain patterns can be observed.
koheripbal 6y ago
This is extremely common in many countries. Even in the US, there are many families that simply omit reporting income earned abroad. Sure, it's technically illegal, but it's not like the Chinese government is going to help enforce US tax laws. Same is true for Chinese families in New Zealand and Australia as well. ...and it's not restricted to Chinese people either - obviously. It's the curse of high tax jurisdictions.
gentleman11 6y ago
Canada, in general, is famous for massive tax loopholes and hiding income. It is not really a hk issue and is in the news on its own “merits” all the time. There are so many wealthy Canadians avoiding taxes that apparently the national debt could be cleared if we could find a way to make them pay
- qqn 6y ago
  Yes, also so common that it has a name: https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_washing https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_washing "The global elite, as well as criminals and foreigners avoiding economic sanctions, can set up shell companies to 'make suspect transactions seem legitimate' under the cover of Canada's reputation for fiscal integrity."
numakerg 6y ago
Then shouldn't the government be closing this loophole and taxing whatever vehicle they use to transfer wealth? I'd criticize an individual for evading taxes, but a "group" of people is just doing what people do. EDIT: If you want to talk about the "functional" value of immigrants, then you need to get to the root purpose and bring in whoever is having the most kids.
- mistermann 6y ago
  Legislation that has any kind of a racial (or perceived to be racial) aspect to it cannot really be discussed freely. Even though closing such loopholes may be perfectly legitimate, if exploitation of the loophole happens to correlate to a racially identifiable group, in the current age of social media based hyper propaganda it is a very dangerous political move for a career politician (or their party) to touch.
  - foogazi 6y ago
    Is that why they have not closed the loophole or are you speculating? Weren’t they talking about taxing vacant properties in Vancouver recently? Was there social media backlash?
    - mistermann 6y ago
      There were significant quantities of racism accusations in social and mainstream media, as there also had been for years during the money laundering in casinos debacle, that most politicians and right thinking news reporters also wouldn't touch. Who knows what's really true, but there sure seem to be a lot of correlative coincidences, with similar stories in many different countries.
  - numakerg 6y ago
    Even if that's the case (and I disagree that it is), I'm sure there are "satellite families" with the breadwinner working in Europe.
    - 6y ago
puapuapuq 6y ago
It depends on your job. Software Engineer wage is way lower in Hong Kong than Canada. Low income tax in Hong Kong does not make it attractive at all.
youeseh 6y ago
What do you think Canadians that work in the Middle East do? Report their incomes?
vanekjar 6y ago
> mother and children live in Canada while the father works in HK.The family doesn't declare the foreign income in Canada. Why would the father pay taxes in Canada when he lives and works in HK (or anywhere else) and (likely) is not a Canadian tax resident? It doesn't make any sense. After all they pay local taxes in Canada while spending (GST, PST, property tax etc.)
- iguy 6y ago
  Count this as evidence for consumption tax being fairer than income tax. Earning money and sitting on it doesn't hurt anyone. But in buying a nice life in Canada, you are in part buying what the government provides.
  - divbzero 6y ago
    Agreed, there’s something to be said for GST or property taxes that are paid by all regardless of citizenship or legal residence.
- divbzero 6y ago
  Yeah it’s confusing. At first, I was also going to post about how Canada uses a residential income tax system: even if you’re a citizen, you don’t pay income tax if you live and work overseas. But it turns out where your spouse lives is relevant for determining residency. [1] Regardless of whether the “astronaut” dads are evading taxes, the bigger question is about designing a tax system that’s both fair and easy to enforce. [1]: https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/tax/international-non-residents/information-been-moved/determining-your-residency-status.html https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/tax/interna...
- koheripbal 6y ago
  Income tax is by far the largest and most progressive tax. Sales taxes are small and regressive. It's a monster difference.
  - vanekjar 6y ago
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

by 99_00 6y ago

tmaly 6y ago

It's also not a good deal for the kids who do not get to see their father.

sterlind 6y ago

If the dad stays an astronaut, he will get lost in space once China finishes engulfing HK. I don't think HKers are going to be as worried about reducing their tax rates as staying free right now..

99_00 6y ago
The whole reason for getting Canadian citizenship is for the day that China engulfs HK and they want to leave. China isn't going to restrict the movement of hundreds of thousands of foreigners legally living in HK. 300,000 Canadians living in HK right now.
- magicsmoke 6y ago
  Yep, the CCP is going after political dissidents. Expats that keep their head down while making money in HK aren't going to be affected.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > China isn't going to restrict the movement of hundreds of thousands of foreigners legally living in HK. At least, they are less likely to do so than they are people who aren’t foreigners, although even them I wouldn’t want to bet my life on it. China ending the two-systems arrangement in Hong Kong despite the Joint Declaration is basically saying “As far as HK (and, implicitly, anything we consider Chinese territory) is concerned, we aren't concerned about what other countries think, or international law or agreements, only power.”
  - pinkfoot 6y ago
    Now you know how Iran feels :)
    - dragonwriter 6y ago
      Well, not just Iran—the US does the same thing pretty blatantly a lot, and it's pretty much Israel’s only mode of operation. There's an argument that it's essentially all of international politics, masked by the fact that most countries, on all but the most existential issues, see the power vs interest calculus as favoring adhering to consensus international law and direct agreements.

dennisgorelik 6y ago

> mother and children live in Canada When these children grow up - they will pay taxes in Canada. It looks like a good deal for Canada. Even if father's income is taxed in Hong Kong only.

koheripbal 6y ago
It would be an even better deal if the father worked in Canada and paid Canadian taxes. Besides, you are assuming that the children of this tax evader aren't going to figure out some other method of avoiding Canadian taxes - like doing literally exactly the same thing.
refurb 6y ago
Are you sure? Or maybe they'll go work in Hong Kong too with the knowledge their Canadian passport gives them a nice escape plan.
99_00 6y ago
It isn't a good deal for Canadians because we can get immigrants that will contribute to Canada, pay taxes, and have children who will do the same. And many of the children of Hk immigrants will go back to HK to earn more money. They will do whatever is in their best interest.
- foogazi 6y ago
  > They will do whatever is in their best interest. Just like every other living being
  - mistermann 6y ago
    At the individual level, yes. But at the aggregate level, certain patterns can be observed.

koheripbal 6y ago

This is extremely common in many countries. Even in the US, there are many families that simply omit reporting income earned abroad. Sure, it's technically illegal, but it's not like the Chinese government is going to help enforce US tax laws. Same is true for Chinese families in New Zealand and Australia as well. ...and it's not restricted to Chinese people either - obviously. It's the curse of high tax jurisdictions.

gentleman11 6y ago

Canada, in general, is famous for massive tax loopholes and hiding income. It is not really a hk issue and is in the news on its own “merits” all the time. There are so many wealthy Canadians avoiding taxes that apparently the national debt could be cleared if we could find a way to make them pay

qqn 6y ago
Yes, also so common that it has a name: https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_washing https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_washing "The global elite, as well as criminals and foreigners avoiding economic sanctions, can set up shell companies to 'make suspect transactions seem legitimate' under the cover of Canada's reputation for fiscal integrity."

numakerg 6y ago

Then shouldn't the government be closing this loophole and taxing whatever vehicle they use to transfer wealth? I'd criticize an individual for evading taxes, but a "group" of people is just doing what people do. EDIT: If you want to talk about the "functional" value of immigrants, then you need to get to the root purpose and bring in whoever is having the most kids.

mistermann 6y ago
Legislation that has any kind of a racial (or perceived to be racial) aspect to it cannot really be discussed freely. Even though closing such loopholes may be perfectly legitimate, if exploitation of the loophole happens to correlate to a racially identifiable group, in the current age of social media based hyper propaganda it is a very dangerous political move for a career politician (or their party) to touch.
- foogazi 6y ago
  Is that why they have not closed the loophole or are you speculating? Weren’t they talking about taxing vacant properties in Vancouver recently? Was there social media backlash?
  - mistermann 6y ago
    There were significant quantities of racism accusations in social and mainstream media, as there also had been for years during the money laundering in casinos debacle, that most politicians and right thinking news reporters also wouldn't touch. Who knows what's really true, but there sure seem to be a lot of correlative coincidences, with similar stories in many different countries.
- numakerg 6y ago
  Even if that's the case (and I disagree that it is), I'm sure there are "satellite families" with the breadwinner working in Europe.
  - 6y ago

puapuapuq 6y ago

It depends on your job. Software Engineer wage is way lower in Hong Kong than Canada. Low income tax in Hong Kong does not make it attractive at all.

youeseh 6y ago

What do you think Canadians that work in the Middle East do? Report their incomes?

vanekjar 6y ago

> mother and children live in Canada while the father works in HK.The family doesn't declare the foreign income in Canada. Why would the father pay taxes in Canada when he lives and works in HK (or anywhere else) and (likely) is not a Canadian tax resident? It doesn't make any sense. After all they pay local taxes in Canada while spending (GST, PST, property tax etc.)

iguy 6y ago
Count this as evidence for consumption tax being fairer than income tax. Earning money and sitting on it doesn't hurt anyone. But in buying a nice life in Canada, you are in part buying what the government provides.
- divbzero 6y ago
  Agreed, there’s something to be said for GST or property taxes that are paid by all regardless of citizenship or legal residence.
divbzero 6y ago
Yeah it’s confusing. At first, I was also going to post about how Canada uses a residential income tax system: even if you’re a citizen, you don’t pay income tax if you live and work overseas. But it turns out where your spouse lives is relevant for determining residency. [1] Regardless of whether the “astronaut” dads are evading taxes, the bigger question is about designing a tax system that’s both fair and easy to enforce. [1]: https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/tax/international-non-residents/information-been-moved/determining-your-residency-status.html https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/tax/interna...
koheripbal 6y ago
Income tax is by far the largest and most progressive tax. Sales taxes are small and regressive. It's a monster difference.
- vanekjar 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]