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The government they made the contract with didn't even exist anymore. The Qing Empire made that contract with the UK. Independence or just keeping HK in the UK

The government they made the contract with didn't even exist anymore. The Qing Empire made that contract with the UK. Independence or just keeping HK in the UK both make at least as much sense as giving it to a country that didn't even exist when the contract was formed.

throwaway1997 6y ago
It may have made sense technically but China has a huge army and HK is dependent on water, electricity and food which comes from the mainland. The mainland government made very clear that if HK wasn't returned, they would cut off the water supply.
- delecti 6y ago
  That's a separate issue though. That China had the military might to take HK doesn't mean they were the legitimate government to have HK returned to. It's not stealing from China to not give them something taken from someone else.
  - free_rms 6y ago
    The UK running HK in the first place was stealing from China. They originally got it as part of the peace settlement from the Opium Wars, then signed the 99-year lease later when the Qing empire was in terminal decline and unable to resist.
    - skissane 6y ago
      If UK had not switched recognition from ROC to PRC, they could have returned it to ROC instead. UK could have demanded a lease renewal from PRC as the price for switching recognition. Instead they just got some “alliance” against the Soviets and it is questionable what that actually delivered.
      - free_rms 6y ago
        If you're gonna go pro-colonialist might makes right, that's your prerogative, but then you're just gonna have to eat it on the fact that the PRC had a lot more might nearby.
        skissane 6y ago
        I don’t see how handing HK over to ROC would have been “pro-colonialist”.
        free_rms 6y ago
        Presuming to control HKs fate after taking it in the freaking opium wars is. Giving HK back to China is an act of decolonization. Putting them under Taiwan and loading up the island with US weapons would not be.
        skissane 6y ago
        Is Taiwan’s democracy “pro-colonialism” too? PRC is itself a colonialist power. See all the Uighurs in concentration camps.
        throwaway1997 6y ago
        Do you think we are happier now that we have been "handed back to the motherland" or is China happy? Why does the opinion and desires of Hong Kong citizens not mater in your mind?
        free_rms 6y ago
        In my mind, that's an internal Chinese matter. I don't want to devalue your experience, but Anglo powers have a terrible record of "colonialism for their own good", "we'll be greeted as liberators", etc.
      - UIZealot 6y ago
        > Instead they just got some “alliance” against the Soviets and it is questionable what that actually delivered. China doesn't like to take credit for that, but personally I believe its alliance with the West was instrumental in the collapse of the Soviet Union.
prewett 6y ago
The government that ruled the territory of the Qing Empire was willing to roll tanks into HK--Deng Xiaoping said "I could take it in an afternoon". China made it clear that they were going to end up with HK one way or another. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handover_of_Hong_Kong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handover_of_Hong_Kong
tasogare 6y ago
Then Honk Hong should have been given back to the Republic of China (Taiwan) which is the direct successor of the Qing empire, not the PRC. RPC is not a successor of Qing nor ROC since ROC still exists.
- delecti 6y ago
  Honestly I think so too, but I doubt the UK government wanted to start a war with China.
  - tasogare 6y ago
    Hum I was half trolling half serious, having skin in the game in favour of Taiwan. Interesting the game Wargame: Red Dragon has exactly a campaign about UK vs PRC over HK. And I spoke that after having of talk with a Japanese people today and they fear they are the next on the list. I told them Japan at like 6th or 5th powerful army despite Article 9, + US alliance (that we all understand as half trustable only), so quite able to defend themselves. A lot of people in East Asian (HK, Vietnam, Philipines, Japan) fear China. This is what I got from talking with friends from this country. Everyone think there will be war at some point, only the time and starting place is unknown.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  The UK already formally recognized the PRC as the sole government of China, and, as such the successor to ROC and Qing interests. Sure, this was in large part about who has the most guns, but it's not like the UK control of HK itself was a result of a free and uncoerced agreement of the parties, either.
dragonwriter 6y ago
> The Qing Empire made that contract with the UK. You really want to set the precedent that regime change voids all international agreements, rather than obligations and rights under them passing to successor regimes?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
hungryhobo 6y ago
So if country A asks for a loan, then immediately dissolve its government and form a new one, should the loan be forgiven?
- delecti 6y ago
  That's a wildly different situation for a couple reasons. The debt is in the opposite direction, and the UK had HK for 100 years, not "immediately". It's not really a relevant thought experiment.

throwaway1997 6y ago

It may have made sense technically but China has a huge army and HK is dependent on water, electricity and food which comes from the mainland. The mainland government made very clear that if HK wasn't returned, they would cut off the water supply.

delecti 6y ago
That's a separate issue though. That China had the military might to take HK doesn't mean they were the legitimate government to have HK returned to. It's not stealing from China to not give them something taken from someone else.
- free_rms 6y ago
  The UK running HK in the first place was stealing from China. They originally got it as part of the peace settlement from the Opium Wars, then signed the 99-year lease later when the Qing empire was in terminal decline and unable to resist.
  - skissane 6y ago
    If UK had not switched recognition from ROC to PRC, they could have returned it to ROC instead. UK could have demanded a lease renewal from PRC as the price for switching recognition. Instead they just got some “alliance” against the Soviets and it is questionable what that actually delivered.
    - free_rms 6y ago
      If you're gonna go pro-colonialist might makes right, that's your prerogative, but then you're just gonna have to eat it on the fact that the PRC had a lot more might nearby.
      - skissane 6y ago
        I don’t see how handing HK over to ROC would have been “pro-colonialist”.
        free_rms 6y ago
        Presuming to control HKs fate after taking it in the freaking opium wars is. Giving HK back to China is an act of decolonization. Putting them under Taiwan and loading up the island with US weapons would not be.
        skissane 6y ago
        Is Taiwan’s democracy “pro-colonialism” too? PRC is itself a colonialist power. See all the Uighurs in concentration camps.
        throwaway1997 6y ago
        Do you think we are happier now that we have been "handed back to the motherland" or is China happy? Why does the opinion and desires of Hong Kong citizens not mater in your mind?
        free_rms 6y ago
        In my mind, that's an internal Chinese matter. I don't want to devalue your experience, but Anglo powers have a terrible record of "colonialism for their own good", "we'll be greeted as liberators", etc.
    - UIZealot 6y ago
      > Instead they just got some “alliance” against the Soviets and it is questionable what that actually delivered. China doesn't like to take credit for that, but personally I believe its alliance with the West was instrumental in the collapse of the Soviet Union.

prewett 6y ago

The government that ruled the territory of the Qing Empire was willing to roll tanks into HK--Deng Xiaoping said "I could take it in an afternoon". China made it clear that they were going to end up with HK one way or another. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handover_of_Hong_Kong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handover_of_Hong_Kong

tasogare 6y ago

Then Honk Hong should have been given back to the Republic of China (Taiwan) which is the direct successor of the Qing empire, not the PRC. RPC is not a successor of Qing nor ROC since ROC still exists.

delecti 6y ago
Honestly I think so too, but I doubt the UK government wanted to start a war with China.
- tasogare 6y ago
  Hum I was half trolling half serious, having skin in the game in favour of Taiwan. Interesting the game Wargame: Red Dragon has exactly a campaign about UK vs PRC over HK. And I spoke that after having of talk with a Japanese people today and they fear they are the next on the list. I told them Japan at like 6th or 5th powerful army despite Article 9, + US alliance (that we all understand as half trustable only), so quite able to defend themselves. A lot of people in East Asian (HK, Vietnam, Philipines, Japan) fear China. This is what I got from talking with friends from this country. Everyone think there will be war at some point, only the time and starting place is unknown.
dragonwriter 6y ago
The UK already formally recognized the PRC as the sole government of China, and, as such the successor to ROC and Qing interests. Sure, this was in large part about who has the most guns, but it's not like the UK control of HK itself was a result of a free and uncoerced agreement of the parties, either.

dragonwriter 6y ago

> The Qing Empire made that contract with the UK. You really want to set the precedent that regime change voids all international agreements, rather than obligations and rights under them passing to successor regimes?

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

hungryhobo 6y ago

So if country A asks for a loan, then immediately dissolve its government and form a new one, should the loan be forgiven?

delecti 6y ago
That's a wildly different situation for a couple reasons. The debt is in the opposite direction, and the UK had HK for 100 years, not "immediately". It's not really a relevant thought experiment.