17 ms·

Pretty soon the law-abiding and obedient people will become aware that life outside of authoritarianism is better and safer, and they will either run away or re

Pretty soon the law-abiding and obedient people will become aware that life outside of authoritarianism is better and safer, and they will either run away or revolt.

mlnj 6y ago
And they'll be even more weakened because they are fewer in numbers.
entropea 6y ago
This is exactly why I'm trying to move out of the USA.
- derision 6y ago
  Because of the rise of the authoritarian left spreading fear across the country with violence and looting?
  - entropea 6y ago
    No, the authoritarian right which includes US liberals. The left doesn't even exist worldwide except in extremely small insignificant numbers pumped up by media to create new red scare conditions among the population. The left has been crushed for the last 40+ years by the authoritarian right and has absolutely no backbone. The authoritarian right runs the gig, the authoritarian right creates the violence. Edit: DSA, arguably the USA's largest, most mainstream true left group is only ~65,000 members across the nation. Quite tiny. I've been to bigger soccer matches. https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/05/dsa-growing-during-coronavirus/611599/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/05/dsa-gro...
    - throw51319 6y ago
      Laughable. The ways things are going currently, if you don't agree with the left on things you can lose your job. You can't voice an opinion that is different or you get labeled a racist. You can see this every day in plain sight.
      - vertex-four 6y ago
        There's a reason some portion of the left is pretty intolerant of the current situation - it literally results in violence to people who don't even share their opinions in the first place.
        throw51319 6y ago
        The "current situation" is not as clear-cut as many would make it out to be. Watching an emotional video is not the smoking gun that shows one side to be completely right, but that's what's happening now. I would think a good write up/analysis using high quality statistics would be the way to decide what is happening in the "current situation". But a graphic and emotional video is going to pull the strings much harder.
        vertex-four 6y ago
        A lot of people have been trying "good write-ups" and "high quality statistics" for a long time, it turns out they don't actually change people's minds - people make up their mind before reading the article. The production of "high quality statistics" hasn't been the turning point in any civil rights movement I'm aware of.
        throw51319 6y ago
        Yeah - and i'm just saying that it should be, instead of an emotional response etc.
        vertex-four 6y ago
        For what it's worth, I've read the statistics, I've read the counterpoints to the statistics, I believe based on them that there is a right-wing violence problem in the US and some other specific places.
      - take_a_breath 6y ago
        When the market doesn't like your actions, the market makes you pay. That's how the system works. Regulating that market response seems like the actual authoritarian move.
    - derision 6y ago
      I don't know how you can write such a nonsensical comment as left wing groups across the country are tearing down statues, rioting and looting, destroying businesses, and terrorizing communities (see residents and business owners inside CHAZ, for example). Can you show me some examples of right wing violence?
      - vertex-four 6y ago
        Yes, but it's a lot more distributed. It's people being assaulted in public spaces for being in any way different. It's the bathroom bills encouraging people to assault people in bathrooms based on nothing but perceived trans status - and then this actually happening. I've suffered both in a country where I theoretically have protections, and I am aware that my friends in the US have suffered worse. I am not going to go into what folk outside my communities suffer from, but I imagine it's not a whole lot better. This isn't violence based on stating an opinion - it's violence based on simply daring to exist in a public space. There's very little news coverage of it because it's "small" things - assaults that leave bruises and not much more, but which the victims know mean they're not welcome in the public spaces everybody else takes for granted - that happen all the time to people minding their own business, and this is and has been the norm for a very long time.
        derision 6y ago
        tl;dr: no you don't have any examples. got it.
        vertex-four 6y ago
        OK, how about this: https://edition.cnn.com/2019/05/06/health/trans-teens-bathroom-policies-sexual-assault-study/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2019/05/06/health/trans-teens-bathro... - right wing policies lead to sexual assault. What about this - https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/north-carolina-trans-sexual-assault-raleigh-bathroom-bill-women-charged-a8718796.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/north-caro... - right-wing violence, kidnapping and sexually violating someone for taking a fucking piss. Do you want me to spend the next 24 hours finding you news stories of right-wing violence against people minding their own business? Actually, no, you do it. EDIT: Ooh, this one, where right-wing violence resulted in literally needing bone surgery to repair the victim's face: https://edition.cnn.com/2020/01/31/us/man-guilty-hate-crime-beat-trans-woman-restroom-trnd/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2020/01/31/us/man-guilty-hate-crime-... You try and explain to me how property damage is the same thing as murdering people in cold blood for simply existing. https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/06/18/chicago-transgender-woman-shot-selena-reyes-hernandez/3219244001/ https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/06/18/chicago... What do you want to see? What would convince you that right-wing violence is a problem? Number of hate crimes?
- tvphan 6y ago
  I see the USA as more chaotic than authoritarian.
- woodpanel 6y ago
  Why trying? If it is so bad in the US, what is keeping you there? Many developed countries have relatively few immigration hurdles for US Americans to pass. UK in particular, European countries are lax in general in these regards (I live in Germany).
  - vertex-four 6y ago
    "Relatively few" usually means a significant employment barrier - you usually have to be making a certain amount of money which is hard to come by at the lower rungs of STEM employment, especially if you're restricted to applying for companies you can interview with from overseas.
    - woodpanel 6y ago
      "Relatively few" for Germany means e.g. - if you're looking for a job here, as an US citizen you get 3 months visa without questions asked - there is no minimum amount of money needed in Germany for US citizens, neither as a deposit nor as pay
      - brabel 6y ago
        I believe that in all countries in Europe, there's a requirement that the pay be at market level to avoid the exploitation of immigrants (there's no distinction based on country of origin as you seem to imply), and that the job be advertised first with the EU's job agency (whatever that is called, I forgot now) and EU citizens are able to apply before an immigrant may be allowed to apply and take the job.
        woodpanel 6y ago
        " the pay be at market level " I believe that is called minimum wage? So that would be already a given. there's no distinction based on country of origin as you seem to imply there is a distinction: There is a German by-law as well as a EU-decree that classifies US Americans as citizens of a "priviliged country" (§ 26 BeschV (Verordnung über die Beschäftigung von Ausländern)). https://www.bdae.com/journalbeitraege/dezember-2016-leben-und-arbeiten-im-ausland/462-arbeitserlaubnis-fuer-expats-aus-den-usa-das-muessen-unternehmen-beachten https://www.bdae.com/journalbeitraege/dezember-2016-leben-un...
TrueDuality 6y ago
It's very hard to give up your home, your friends, your connections, and potentially your family even if you have an opportunity for a better life. Yes, a lot of those connections can potentially move to the same city & country as you but will your neighbor still be your neighbor? Will the bar at the end of the street you go to after a hard day still be there and know exactly what you want when you walk through the door? The revolt started almost 15 months ago against this kind of crap from China. Emigration may protect you from getting arrested but you're giving up everything you know and love in exchange. That's not much of a deal.
- woodpanel 6y ago
  And of course: Beijing will label the emmigrants as home-abandoning traitors.
  - tankenmate 6y ago
    Not just that they also pressure family members that are left behind so that the defectors who left come back; then they arrest them. [0] [0] https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/01/31/china-families-interpol-targets-harassed https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/01/31/china-families-interpol-...
- mnm1 6y ago
  Better than being ruled by communists, that's for damn sure. That was my experience, anyway.
  - TimTheTinker 6y ago
    I’m really curious: what is your experience that you’re referring to?
    - stqism 6y ago
      Not the person you’re replying to, but I know a number of people with this sentiment. They’re all former residents of the Soviet Union and were able to get out as refugees to the US when it collapsed.
starfallg 6y ago
Of course it is better to live in a liberal as opposed to an authoritarian system, but this type of thinking (an inherent inevitability of liberalism to win over authoritarianism) breeds complacency and can ultimately be the downfall of western liberal democracy. There is no guarantee that the system that is more just will win out. That's the reason why we have to do everything we can to make sure that liberal democracy works and to impede authoritarianism in all its forms and guises. The CCP should never have had the amount of international investment and export markets it has had, given the overall strategy of the party to hoard power and crush dissent.
- chosenbreed37 6y ago
  I'm not sure we need to impede authoritarianism or any other form of government. It is more than likely that level of investment that has gone into China over the last few decades have put the country in the a strong position. But I think the CCP and the Chinese people in general can take a lot of credit for what they have achieved. And to my point...if the end result is rising incomes for all, better life expectancy and an overall better quality of life does it matter that it came about through an authoritarian regime?
  - starfallg 6y ago
    >if the end result is rising incomes for all, better life expectancy and an overall better quality of life does it matter that it came about through an authoritarian regime? And when this growth ends, what will happen? An authoritarian system is able to withstand challenges with the full power of the state behind it. People that dissent are crushed, and many times the people that dissent do so with the most honourable of intentions. Viewed under the prism of authoritarianism this matters not. It's a system that remains not because of consent and merit, but ultimately due to suppression of dissent. Just because China is able to catch-up some of the growth that it completely missed out on due to the turmoil of the Communist revolution and the turbulent 50s and 60s, doesn't validate this system one bit. Other countries were ahead of China, with more growth and sustainability, minus the cruelty.
    - 6y ago
throw51319 6y ago
Life in China is fine right now. They are living about 50x better off than their parents. They are educated. The CCP is super clever and imbued a sort of nationalistic pride from birth. Instead of the US's more complicated dualistic individualism/patriotism combo, the Chinese people actually get some sort of pride for being a cog in the CCP machine. It's a completely different paradigm and obviously super dangerous because it allows the people at the top who aren't elected to pull the strings on a machine of 1.4 billion people. If they run the system correctly, it can be much more "effective". Democracy has lots of pressure outlets, and it is definitely much more healthy longterm. That's why I think it's the better system, even vs a well-run (and let's even assume benevolent) CCP.
- Apfel 6y ago
  It should be pointed out that life in Hong Kong is definitely not markedly better for young people than it was for their parents.
  - throw51319 6y ago
    Yup, and exactly part of the reason they are protesting. Goes to show how much "relative" economic success is important to peoples' satisfaction of government. Even in the US, that is the #1 issue in every Pres election. How's the economy? Aka do people with 401k's think that they are better off, and thus do they think they are doing better against their peers (their competition for finding a mate/maintaining their mate)
- bamboozled 6y ago
  So I think you're saying that, people are brainwashed to believe in the party?
  - albertsondev 6y ago
    Not brainwashed, but socialized. In East Asian countries and China especially, collectivism and Confucianism are pervasive, with deep cultural roots. The CCP is, of course, supporting and reinforcing those ideals, but it's just as much simply taking advantage of the pre-existing culture. Just like how the US is strongly culturally capitalist and individualistic -- as we value bootstraps capitalism and the "American Dream", the people of mainland China value supporting each other and the state, even when it's not explicitly in their best interests.

Pretty soon the law-abiding and obedient people will become aware that life outside of authoritarianism is better and safer, and they will either run away or revolt.

mlnj 6y ago

And they'll be even more weakened because they are fewer in numbers.

entropea 6y ago

This is exactly why I'm trying to move out of the USA.

derision 6y ago
Because of the rise of the authoritarian left spreading fear across the country with violence and looting?
- entropea 6y ago
  No, the authoritarian right which includes US liberals. The left doesn't even exist worldwide except in extremely small insignificant numbers pumped up by media to create new red scare conditions among the population. The left has been crushed for the last 40+ years by the authoritarian right and has absolutely no backbone. The authoritarian right runs the gig, the authoritarian right creates the violence. Edit: DSA, arguably the USA's largest, most mainstream true left group is only ~65,000 members across the nation. Quite tiny. I've been to bigger soccer matches. https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/05/dsa-growing-during-coronavirus/611599/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/05/dsa-gro...
  - throw51319 6y ago
    Laughable. The ways things are going currently, if you don't agree with the left on things you can lose your job. You can't voice an opinion that is different or you get labeled a racist. You can see this every day in plain sight.
    - vertex-four 6y ago
      There's a reason some portion of the left is pretty intolerant of the current situation - it literally results in violence to people who don't even share their opinions in the first place.
      - throw51319 6y ago
        The "current situation" is not as clear-cut as many would make it out to be. Watching an emotional video is not the smoking gun that shows one side to be completely right, but that's what's happening now. I would think a good write up/analysis using high quality statistics would be the way to decide what is happening in the "current situation". But a graphic and emotional video is going to pull the strings much harder.
        vertex-four 6y ago
        A lot of people have been trying "good write-ups" and "high quality statistics" for a long time, it turns out they don't actually change people's minds - people make up their mind before reading the article. The production of "high quality statistics" hasn't been the turning point in any civil rights movement I'm aware of.
        throw51319 6y ago
        Yeah - and i'm just saying that it should be, instead of an emotional response etc.
        vertex-four 6y ago
        For what it's worth, I've read the statistics, I've read the counterpoints to the statistics, I believe based on them that there is a right-wing violence problem in the US and some other specific places.
    - take_a_breath 6y ago
      When the market doesn't like your actions, the market makes you pay. That's how the system works. Regulating that market response seems like the actual authoritarian move.
  - derision 6y ago
    I don't know how you can write such a nonsensical comment as left wing groups across the country are tearing down statues, rioting and looting, destroying businesses, and terrorizing communities (see residents and business owners inside CHAZ, for example). Can you show me some examples of right wing violence?
    - vertex-four 6y ago
      Yes, but it's a lot more distributed. It's people being assaulted in public spaces for being in any way different. It's the bathroom bills encouraging people to assault people in bathrooms based on nothing but perceived trans status - and then this actually happening. I've suffered both in a country where I theoretically have protections, and I am aware that my friends in the US have suffered worse. I am not going to go into what folk outside my communities suffer from, but I imagine it's not a whole lot better. This isn't violence based on stating an opinion - it's violence based on simply daring to exist in a public space. There's very little news coverage of it because it's "small" things - assaults that leave bruises and not much more, but which the victims know mean they're not welcome in the public spaces everybody else takes for granted - that happen all the time to people minding their own business, and this is and has been the norm for a very long time.
      - derision 6y ago
        tl;dr: no you don't have any examples. got it.
        vertex-four 6y ago
        OK, how about this: https://edition.cnn.com/2019/05/06/health/trans-teens-bathroom-policies-sexual-assault-study/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2019/05/06/health/trans-teens-bathro... - right wing policies lead to sexual assault. What about this - https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/north-carolina-trans-sexual-assault-raleigh-bathroom-bill-women-charged-a8718796.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/north-caro... - right-wing violence, kidnapping and sexually violating someone for taking a fucking piss. Do you want me to spend the next 24 hours finding you news stories of right-wing violence against people minding their own business? Actually, no, you do it. EDIT: Ooh, this one, where right-wing violence resulted in literally needing bone surgery to repair the victim's face: https://edition.cnn.com/2020/01/31/us/man-guilty-hate-crime-beat-trans-woman-restroom-trnd/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2020/01/31/us/man-guilty-hate-crime-... You try and explain to me how property damage is the same thing as murdering people in cold blood for simply existing. https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/06/18/chicago-transgender-woman-shot-selena-reyes-hernandez/3219244001/ https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/06/18/chicago... What do you want to see? What would convince you that right-wing violence is a problem? Number of hate crimes?
tvphan 6y ago
I see the USA as more chaotic than authoritarian.
woodpanel 6y ago
Why trying? If it is so bad in the US, what is keeping you there? Many developed countries have relatively few immigration hurdles for US Americans to pass. UK in particular, European countries are lax in general in these regards (I live in Germany).
- vertex-four 6y ago
  "Relatively few" usually means a significant employment barrier - you usually have to be making a certain amount of money which is hard to come by at the lower rungs of STEM employment, especially if you're restricted to applying for companies you can interview with from overseas.
  - woodpanel 6y ago
    "Relatively few" for Germany means e.g. - if you're looking for a job here, as an US citizen you get 3 months visa without questions asked - there is no minimum amount of money needed in Germany for US citizens, neither as a deposit nor as pay
    - brabel 6y ago
      I believe that in all countries in Europe, there's a requirement that the pay be at market level to avoid the exploitation of immigrants (there's no distinction based on country of origin as you seem to imply), and that the job be advertised first with the EU's job agency (whatever that is called, I forgot now) and EU citizens are able to apply before an immigrant may be allowed to apply and take the job.
      - woodpanel 6y ago
        " the pay be at market level " I believe that is called minimum wage? So that would be already a given. there's no distinction based on country of origin as you seem to imply there is a distinction: There is a German by-law as well as a EU-decree that classifies US Americans as citizens of a "priviliged country" (§ 26 BeschV (Verordnung über die Beschäftigung von Ausländern)). https://www.bdae.com/journalbeitraege/dezember-2016-leben-und-arbeiten-im-ausland/462-arbeitserlaubnis-fuer-expats-aus-den-usa-das-muessen-unternehmen-beachten https://www.bdae.com/journalbeitraege/dezember-2016-leben-un...

TrueDuality 6y ago

It's very hard to give up your home, your friends, your connections, and potentially your family even if you have an opportunity for a better life. Yes, a lot of those connections can potentially move to the same city & country as you but will your neighbor still be your neighbor? Will the bar at the end of the street you go to after a hard day still be there and know exactly what you want when you walk through the door? The revolt started almost 15 months ago against this kind of crap from China. Emigration may protect you from getting arrested but you're giving up everything you know and love in exchange. That's not much of a deal.

woodpanel 6y ago
And of course: Beijing will label the emmigrants as home-abandoning traitors.
- tankenmate 6y ago
  Not just that they also pressure family members that are left behind so that the defectors who left come back; then they arrest them. [0] [0] https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/01/31/china-families-interpol-targets-harassed https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/01/31/china-families-interpol-...
mnm1 6y ago
Better than being ruled by communists, that's for damn sure. That was my experience, anyway.
- TimTheTinker 6y ago
  I’m really curious: what is your experience that you’re referring to?
  - stqism 6y ago
    Not the person you’re replying to, but I know a number of people with this sentiment. They’re all former residents of the Soviet Union and were able to get out as refugees to the US when it collapsed.

starfallg 6y ago

Of course it is better to live in a liberal as opposed to an authoritarian system, but this type of thinking (an inherent inevitability of liberalism to win over authoritarianism) breeds complacency and can ultimately be the downfall of western liberal democracy. There is no guarantee that the system that is more just will win out. That's the reason why we have to do everything we can to make sure that liberal democracy works and to impede authoritarianism in all its forms and guises. The CCP should never have had the amount of international investment and export markets it has had, given the overall strategy of the party to hoard power and crush dissent.

chosenbreed37 6y ago
I'm not sure we need to impede authoritarianism or any other form of government. It is more than likely that level of investment that has gone into China over the last few decades have put the country in the a strong position. But I think the CCP and the Chinese people in general can take a lot of credit for what they have achieved. And to my point...if the end result is rising incomes for all, better life expectancy and an overall better quality of life does it matter that it came about through an authoritarian regime?
- starfallg 6y ago
  >if the end result is rising incomes for all, better life expectancy and an overall better quality of life does it matter that it came about through an authoritarian regime? And when this growth ends, what will happen? An authoritarian system is able to withstand challenges with the full power of the state behind it. People that dissent are crushed, and many times the people that dissent do so with the most honourable of intentions. Viewed under the prism of authoritarianism this matters not. It's a system that remains not because of consent and merit, but ultimately due to suppression of dissent. Just because China is able to catch-up some of the growth that it completely missed out on due to the turmoil of the Communist revolution and the turbulent 50s and 60s, doesn't validate this system one bit. Other countries were ahead of China, with more growth and sustainability, minus the cruelty.
  - 6y ago

throw51319 6y ago

Life in China is fine right now. They are living about 50x better off than their parents. They are educated. The CCP is super clever and imbued a sort of nationalistic pride from birth. Instead of the US's more complicated dualistic individualism/patriotism combo, the Chinese people actually get some sort of pride for being a cog in the CCP machine. It's a completely different paradigm and obviously super dangerous because it allows the people at the top who aren't elected to pull the strings on a machine of 1.4 billion people. If they run the system correctly, it can be much more "effective". Democracy has lots of pressure outlets, and it is definitely much more healthy longterm. That's why I think it's the better system, even vs a well-run (and let's even assume benevolent) CCP.

Apfel 6y ago
It should be pointed out that life in Hong Kong is definitely not markedly better for young people than it was for their parents.
- throw51319 6y ago
  Yup, and exactly part of the reason they are protesting. Goes to show how much "relative" economic success is important to peoples' satisfaction of government. Even in the US, that is the #1 issue in every Pres election. How's the economy? Aka do people with 401k's think that they are better off, and thus do they think they are doing better against their peers (their competition for finding a mate/maintaining their mate)
bamboozled 6y ago
So I think you're saying that, people are brainwashed to believe in the party?
- albertsondev 6y ago
  Not brainwashed, but socialized. In East Asian countries and China especially, collectivism and Confucianism are pervasive, with deep cultural roots. The CCP is, of course, supporting and reinforcing those ideals, but it's just as much simply taking advantage of the pre-existing culture. Just like how the US is strongly culturally capitalist and individualistic -- as we value bootstraps capitalism and the "American Dream", the people of mainland China value supporting each other and the state, even when it's not explicitly in their best interests.