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I've heard this argument alot. To people saying caste isn't that big of an issue in contemporary india, esp in the urban areas: let's ask an Indian parent if th

I've heard this argument alot. To people saying caste isn't that big of an issue in contemporary india, esp in the urban areas: let's ask an Indian parent if they'd be comfortable having their child marry someone they think is of a "lower caste" than theirs. THIS is the best litmus test, quick, cheap and easy way to clear all doubts on the contemporary caste question. The things is inter-caste marriage is the best way for caste to be eliminated, and since that is hardly happening, doubt it'll go away anytime soon. Hell, Indians on matrimonials openly advertise theirs and ask for partners of specific caste. https://www.scroll.in/article/897802/how-same-caste-marriages-persisted-for-thousands-of-years-in-india-and-are-still-going-strong https://www.scroll.in/article/897802/how-same-caste-marriage...

saagarjha 6y ago
> let's ask an Indian parent if they'd be comfortable having their child marry someone they think is of a "lower caste" than theirs I have found that one of the quickest ways to be sure that the answer you get for that question matches what you’d like is to open them up to the possibility you might not get married at all. If my parents ever cared about that, they sure don’t now, and they’re nowhere near desperate ;)
- rutherblood 6y ago
  IMO Indian parents are some of most sly people to walk earth. They coerce, emotionally blackmail and are obsessive about controlling their child's lives be it professional, educational, romantic decisions. Sometimes I think the quote "Most parents would do anything for their child except let them be who they are" is specifically made for the Indian boomer generation.
  - vishnugupta 6y ago
    Oh boy this hit so close to home that I almost fell off laughing in agreement. I’m trying my absolute best not to be what my father was to me to my sons.
    - bluGill 6y ago
      Be careful not to go too far the other direction.Kids do need some direction to get them on a good course. I don't know you or your kids. So I'll just leave that as a general warning and hope you can make the right decision as to allowing your kids many good choices while keeping them from making a really bad one.
  - TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
    Not every culture values independence above all like the west. Many places, particularly around Asia, value family ties or the collective good more than the individual. Also, who someone is isn't set in stone. It can be molded by those around them.
  - silasrude 6y ago
    Don't suppose you have ever heard the trope about jewish mothers? I think parents everywhere... :)
    - istjohn 6y ago
      My parents are not like this at all, so it's not universal.
  - unmole 6y ago
    > Indian boomer generation Off topic but this is something that grinds my gears. India didn't have a post WW2 baby boom, there are no Indian boomers. Etymology aside, Boomer is used to signal generational privilege which also doesn't apply to India.
entha_saava 6y ago
To be honest, for some of them it is a matter of 'preserving culture' and I don't think they would accept a 'higher' caste one either. That said, it may be different in other parts of India.
- rutherblood 6y ago
  that's actually true, but in most cases, while they might be reluctantly willing to accept a partner from a "higher caste" they'd be downright aggressively dismissive of the other. And this holds for families all along the long chain of the caste hierarchy. Hypocrisy is a way of life.
naveen99 6y ago
Inter caste marriage doesn’t eliminate caste anymore than interracial marriage eliminates race. Also, there are no protected categories for discrimination when it comes to mating or marriage. Edit: splitting this comment into a reply. Please downvote or upvote individually...
- naveen99 6y ago
  Originally part of parent, split for separable voting. I feel like the quest for universal equality is like the quest for a universal compression algorithm, futile. everyone is unique, so you can’t equalize people. The most productive and happy path forward is to think about the individuals (yourself and your counterparty). It’s not your group against the world. It’s you against the world. And it’s not your group at your disposal, it’s the world at your disposal.
- istjohn 6y ago
  Interracial marriage does not eliminate race, but in my experience as someone in an interracial marriage, it does greatly ameliorate the harms of racial divisions in society. It closes the empathy gap, allowing a large circle of people on each side learn about the unique experiences and circumstances of people in the other culture. It opens a kind of wormhole in the social graph allowing cultural knowledge and resources to flow between communities previously alien to each other. I believe the power of intermarriage really cannot be overstated as a means of bridging cultural divides.
wobbly_bush 6y ago
> let's ask an Indian parent if they'd be comfortable having their child marry someone they think is of a "lower caste" than theirs. THIS is the best litmus test, quick, cheap and easy way to clear all doubts on the contemporary caste question. This test will fail because it doesn't account for what truly is caste in people's minds. Even among those who do not want to discriminate, different castes represent different daily cultures, traditions and even languages. So the question becomes on if they are comfortable with someone from a different culture - and that answer is almost always no.
- JoeAltmaier 6y ago
  Is that just an Indian thing? Because in my family, here in Rural Iowa, the in-laws include a woman from New Delhi, Valencia Spain, Baguio Philippines, 2nd generation Elba Italy, Korea. That doesn't count the New Englanders and Appalachians (which is a whole different thing than Iowan). I mention it because, a spouse of a different culture can be a wonderful thing. Language, food, daily culture are a constant source of enjoyment and growth.
  - wobbly_bush 6y ago
    I agree with you but for a country which has seen more than 1000 years of conflict from "outside cultures" (the Mughals, the British, etc.), the instinct to preserve one's own culture is very strong. That is why you see Hinduism still surviving whereas in other parts of the world other local religions (and cultures) were destroyed. Recently with more education, globalization, emigration and with the internet things have started to change slowly.
    - oliTwist23 6y ago
      This unfortunately is very true. Hope things change as soon as possible for my kids. Intercase marriages are the solution to this problem, unfortunately is very low.
  - random314 6y ago
    Cultural differences are a mere fig leaf for racism. Culture doesn't differ in a big way at all amongst castes. Watch his reply to your post where he cleverly passes off muslims and Christians as invader cultures, without you noticing.
sbmthakur 6y ago
Arranged-marriages based on caste are also not good for the nation because it perpetuates the idea that 'your culture' is somehow superior than to the rest of the nation.

saagarjha 6y ago

> let's ask an Indian parent if they'd be comfortable having their child marry someone they think is of a "lower caste" than theirs I have found that one of the quickest ways to be sure that the answer you get for that question matches what you’d like is to open them up to the possibility you might not get married at all. If my parents ever cared about that, they sure don’t now, and they’re nowhere near desperate ;)

rutherblood 6y ago
IMO Indian parents are some of most sly people to walk earth. They coerce, emotionally blackmail and are obsessive about controlling their child's lives be it professional, educational, romantic decisions. Sometimes I think the quote "Most parents would do anything for their child except let them be who they are" is specifically made for the Indian boomer generation.
- vishnugupta 6y ago
  Oh boy this hit so close to home that I almost fell off laughing in agreement. I’m trying my absolute best not to be what my father was to me to my sons.
  - bluGill 6y ago
    Be careful not to go too far the other direction.Kids do need some direction to get them on a good course. I don't know you or your kids. So I'll just leave that as a general warning and hope you can make the right decision as to allowing your kids many good choices while keeping them from making a really bad one.
- TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
  Not every culture values independence above all like the west. Many places, particularly around Asia, value family ties or the collective good more than the individual. Also, who someone is isn't set in stone. It can be molded by those around them.
- silasrude 6y ago
  Don't suppose you have ever heard the trope about jewish mothers? I think parents everywhere... :)
  - istjohn 6y ago
    My parents are not like this at all, so it's not universal.
- unmole 6y ago
  > Indian boomer generation Off topic but this is something that grinds my gears. India didn't have a post WW2 baby boom, there are no Indian boomers. Etymology aside, Boomer is used to signal generational privilege which also doesn't apply to India.

entha_saava 6y ago

To be honest, for some of them it is a matter of 'preserving culture' and I don't think they would accept a 'higher' caste one either. That said, it may be different in other parts of India.

rutherblood 6y ago
that's actually true, but in most cases, while they might be reluctantly willing to accept a partner from a "higher caste" they'd be downright aggressively dismissive of the other. And this holds for families all along the long chain of the caste hierarchy. Hypocrisy is a way of life.

naveen99 6y ago

Inter caste marriage doesn’t eliminate caste anymore than interracial marriage eliminates race. Also, there are no protected categories for discrimination when it comes to mating or marriage. Edit: splitting this comment into a reply. Please downvote or upvote individually...

naveen99 6y ago
Originally part of parent, split for separable voting. I feel like the quest for universal equality is like the quest for a universal compression algorithm, futile. everyone is unique, so you can’t equalize people. The most productive and happy path forward is to think about the individuals (yourself and your counterparty). It’s not your group against the world. It’s you against the world. And it’s not your group at your disposal, it’s the world at your disposal.
istjohn 6y ago
Interracial marriage does not eliminate race, but in my experience as someone in an interracial marriage, it does greatly ameliorate the harms of racial divisions in society. It closes the empathy gap, allowing a large circle of people on each side learn about the unique experiences and circumstances of people in the other culture. It opens a kind of wormhole in the social graph allowing cultural knowledge and resources to flow between communities previously alien to each other. I believe the power of intermarriage really cannot be overstated as a means of bridging cultural divides.

wobbly_bush 6y ago

> let's ask an Indian parent if they'd be comfortable having their child marry someone they think is of a "lower caste" than theirs. THIS is the best litmus test, quick, cheap and easy way to clear all doubts on the contemporary caste question. This test will fail because it doesn't account for what truly is caste in people's minds. Even among those who do not want to discriminate, different castes represent different daily cultures, traditions and even languages. So the question becomes on if they are comfortable with someone from a different culture - and that answer is almost always no.

JoeAltmaier 6y ago
Is that just an Indian thing? Because in my family, here in Rural Iowa, the in-laws include a woman from New Delhi, Valencia Spain, Baguio Philippines, 2nd generation Elba Italy, Korea. That doesn't count the New Englanders and Appalachians (which is a whole different thing than Iowan). I mention it because, a spouse of a different culture can be a wonderful thing. Language, food, daily culture are a constant source of enjoyment and growth.
- wobbly_bush 6y ago
  I agree with you but for a country which has seen more than 1000 years of conflict from "outside cultures" (the Mughals, the British, etc.), the instinct to preserve one's own culture is very strong. That is why you see Hinduism still surviving whereas in other parts of the world other local religions (and cultures) were destroyed. Recently with more education, globalization, emigration and with the internet things have started to change slowly.
  - oliTwist23 6y ago
    This unfortunately is very true. Hope things change as soon as possible for my kids. Intercase marriages are the solution to this problem, unfortunately is very low.
- random314 6y ago
  Cultural differences are a mere fig leaf for racism. Culture doesn't differ in a big way at all amongst castes. Watch his reply to your post where he cleverly passes off muslims and Christians as invader cultures, without you noticing.

sbmthakur 6y ago

Arranged-marriages based on caste are also not good for the nation because it perpetuates the idea that 'your culture' is somehow superior than to the rest of the nation.