6 ms·

Couldn't people just change their last name? I imagine if suddenly everyone's last name was Gupta, that kind of discrimination would become difficult.

hef19898 6y ago
I wondered the same thing when I was in India years ago. So I asked our guide. There are a lot of clues beyond family name to determine ones caste. Would be nice if it where that easy, so.
- saagarjha 6y ago
  And I assume some people like their last name, regardless of discrimination they might face because of it…
ponker 6y ago
You can change your last name to Rockefeller, and some get away with it [1], but usually you'd be exposed because not only would you not have the right clothes, manners, alma maters, accent, etc... but most of all, you wouldn't know the right people. "Oh you're a Rockefeller, eh? So I'll see you at the Wickliffe's garden party in Martha's Vineyard this June?" [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Gerhartsreiter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Gerhartsreiter
- bravura 6y ago
  Although I agree with your general sentiment, it seems that Christian Gerhartsreiter got quite far (e.g. member of the Algonquin club), and wasn't discovered because of poor manners or a declasse accent or the wrong clothes, but for parental child abduction.
  - ponker 6y ago
    Yep. He even married a McKinsey partner back when that was an admirable career.
himinlomax 6y ago
For some reason this reminds me of this Senegalese immigrant to France who, upon receiving citizenship, petitioned to have his legal name changed to better reflect his new identity. He chose "Charles de Gaulle." This was 30 years ago, I don't remember if he was successful.
- sbierwagen 6y ago
  For those unfamiliar with French history: the original Charles de Gaulle was born in Lille, France, in 1890, and was the leader of the French government in exile during WW2. Taking his name would be something like an American immigrant naming themselves George Washington.
  - dmurray 6y ago
    That wasn't a popular name chosen by immigrants to America, but very popular among freed slaves who had a similar opportunity to choose a new name: https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/washington-the-blackest-name-in-america/ https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/washington-the-bla...
- IfOnlyYouKnew 6y ago
  He will willing to, almost literally, give up his identity to assimilate. Plus he apparently had a pretty good understanding of the culture. I hope he got the name, a good job, and maybe some sort of award for "French Person of the Year".
  - pnako 6y ago
    Well, he got an airport and nuclear aircraft carrier named after him!
postingawayonhn 6y ago
Yes. That's what Sikhs do. > Male Sikhs generally have Singh ("lion") as their middle or last name, though not all Singhs are Sikhs. Likewise, female Sikhs have Kaur ("princess") as their middle or last name. [1] [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhs https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhs
- 80mph 6y ago
  But don't Sikhs also have their own (diluted?) form of caste system?
mirchibajji 6y ago
The other side of the story is the positive discrimination via Reservations that some castes are granted for college admissions, jobs, promotions, financial help etc. available to them. I don't know the legal position of this, but I imagine changing a name might be seen as giving up on your caste based reservations. Politicians favour caste/religion based voter segmentation, which doesn't help either. In some states, it is impossible to get into good med schools, even if you score 100% in your tests, because there could be only three seats in the open quota, and 4 candidates got 100%
- furyroad 6y ago
  Reservation is not granted based on the last name. It is granted based on the caste marked in the documents. While it is true that the fourth candidate with 100% may not get a seat, the same is true in reserved seats as well. If there are 20 reserved seats and 21 candidates score 100%, the last guy may not get a seat. I don't understand what is that you are calling unfair as.
  - mirchibajji 6y ago
    > Reservation is not granted based on the last name. It is granted based on the caste marked in the documents. Yes. I was responding to "why not change the last name". There is a correlation between some castes and last names, so changing the last name may seem as giving up on the caste-based reservation. ie, a practical reason to retain the family name.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
furyroad 6y ago
I am from the state of Tamil Nadu. Unlike other states, we don't use a last name. The official forms and documents of state government/schools will not have a last name field. If pressed for last name, we just use fathers name. The first time I had to give a last name was when I was >20 years old when applying for passport from the Indian government. (Federal govt. not the state govt.) My last name is my fathers first name. My fathers last name is his fathers first name. My grand fathers last name was his caste name. Till my grand fathers generation, caste name as last name was prevalent. It all changed with the Self-Respect movement led by social justice icon Periyar. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periyar_E._V._Ramasamy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periyar_E._V._Ramasamy At fist Self-Respect conference held on Feb 1929, Periyar passed a resolution to drop caste names. The press report about the conference reads “The necessity of the resolution to drop caste titles is strengthened because of the practice of discriminating persons on the basis of their names without knowing anything about their character, ability or intelligence. The demand that such discriminatory caste titles and religion-markers are abolished will appeal to all those in favour of unity and equality.” Source: https://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/all-in-your-name/article22986770.ece https://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/all-in-your-name/arti... It is rather popular to use the education qualifications after a persons name (like MBA, Masters in Engineering etc), as most seen on wedding invitations behind bride and grooms name, to emphasize on the importance of education and skills as a status marker rather than birth. Example: https://kingofcards.in/media/others/printing/templates/template4.jpg https://kingofcards.in/media/others/printing/templates/templ...
- hiyer 6y ago
  If you think caste discrimination does not exist in TN just because of this, you are fooling yourself. Politically powerful castes like Vanniyars and Gounders still discriminate against Dalits and other castes, especially in rural areas.
  - furyroad 6y ago
    I don't disagree. The powerful classes still dominate the lower classes. Caste system is deeply rooted in the culture for thousand of years. It will take a very long time and massive efforts to eradicate it. Self-respect movement was one of the early efforts in the right direction and it had found great success in my opinion. I attribute my life progress to the effects of Self-respect movement. I was born in a poor low-caste family, raised by a single mother. I completed a STEM masters degree in India, migrated to the US and now work at one of the FAANG companies. I benefited from the educational and social policies of my state govt. and was able to push myself up despite financial and social disadvantages. The major turning point in my life was when I was able to secure a seat at the top technical college of the state through single-window counseling which was introduced by the state govt. the year before. Without that system, I would have applied to individual colleges separately (costs lot of money) and had been at the mercy of racially biased selection committees, dominated by the so called upper castes. I neither had the light skin, nor the deep pockets to pay for a "management seat". I made use of the best resources at the institution presented by the opportunity I wouldn't have got otherwise. It changed my life forever.
randomguy2379 6y ago
An even better approach is to just change your religion. I was born a hindu dalit but I converted and so have many of my friends and family. Religious conversions have become so common in India that states have started to bring out laws to curtail it. Casteism is a construct of Hinduism and other religions don't suffer from it in the same way as Hinduism does. So you can change your religion , your name and claim that you have no caste. Hindus have no problem seeing a converted christian as equal to them, but will refuse to see people from their own religion as equal.
- naruvimama 6y ago
  You really seem to have no idea about segregated churches and caste violence is greatest among the Christians. The church has been so successful in promoting caste divisions to convert people that it has caught on to them. Part of the reason why organised conversion is banned in some states is because of the tendency of the church to convert by hook or crook and the accompanying propaganda of hate. You should read up a bit about the apology made by the church for being responsible for the Rwandan genocide.
  - muro 6y ago
    > You should read up a bit about the apology made by the church for being responsible for the Rwandan genocide. That's a misleading statement. The church was complicit, not responsible. Still reprehensible.
    - naruvimama 6y ago
      The church was responsible for promoting the division so they could convert. That is not just complicit but also responsible. If you are engaged in arson, and the church watches silently or hand out gas it is complicit. If it pours gas on the building so you can light it on fire it is responsible.
- g8oz 6y ago
  Convert and you might get beaten up by your local Bajrang Dal chapter.

hef19898 6y ago

I wondered the same thing when I was in India years ago. So I asked our guide. There are a lot of clues beyond family name to determine ones caste. Would be nice if it where that easy, so.

saagarjha 6y ago
And I assume some people like their last name, regardless of discrimination they might face because of it…

ponker 6y ago

You can change your last name to Rockefeller, and some get away with it [1], but usually you'd be exposed because not only would you not have the right clothes, manners, alma maters, accent, etc... but most of all, you wouldn't know the right people. "Oh you're a Rockefeller, eh? So I'll see you at the Wickliffe's garden party in Martha's Vineyard this June?" [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Gerhartsreiter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Gerhartsreiter

bravura 6y ago
Although I agree with your general sentiment, it seems that Christian Gerhartsreiter got quite far (e.g. member of the Algonquin club), and wasn't discovered because of poor manners or a declasse accent or the wrong clothes, but for parental child abduction.
- ponker 6y ago
  Yep. He even married a McKinsey partner back when that was an admirable career.

himinlomax 6y ago

For some reason this reminds me of this Senegalese immigrant to France who, upon receiving citizenship, petitioned to have his legal name changed to better reflect his new identity. He chose "Charles de Gaulle." This was 30 years ago, I don't remember if he was successful.

sbierwagen 6y ago
For those unfamiliar with French history: the original Charles de Gaulle was born in Lille, France, in 1890, and was the leader of the French government in exile during WW2. Taking his name would be something like an American immigrant naming themselves George Washington.
- dmurray 6y ago
  That wasn't a popular name chosen by immigrants to America, but very popular among freed slaves who had a similar opportunity to choose a new name: https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/washington-the-blackest-name-in-america/ https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/washington-the-bla...
IfOnlyYouKnew 6y ago
He will willing to, almost literally, give up his identity to assimilate. Plus he apparently had a pretty good understanding of the culture. I hope he got the name, a good job, and maybe some sort of award for "French Person of the Year".
- pnako 6y ago
  Well, he got an airport and nuclear aircraft carrier named after him!

postingawayonhn 6y ago

Yes. That's what Sikhs do. > Male Sikhs generally have Singh ("lion") as their middle or last name, though not all Singhs are Sikhs. Likewise, female Sikhs have Kaur ("princess") as their middle or last name. [1] [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhs https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhs

80mph 6y ago
But don't Sikhs also have their own (diluted?) form of caste system?

mirchibajji 6y ago

The other side of the story is the positive discrimination via Reservations that some castes are granted for college admissions, jobs, promotions, financial help etc. available to them. I don't know the legal position of this, but I imagine changing a name might be seen as giving up on your caste based reservations. Politicians favour caste/religion based voter segmentation, which doesn't help either. In some states, it is impossible to get into good med schools, even if you score 100% in your tests, because there could be only three seats in the open quota, and 4 candidates got 100%

furyroad 6y ago
Reservation is not granted based on the last name. It is granted based on the caste marked in the documents. While it is true that the fourth candidate with 100% may not get a seat, the same is true in reserved seats as well. If there are 20 reserved seats and 21 candidates score 100%, the last guy may not get a seat. I don't understand what is that you are calling unfair as.
- mirchibajji 6y ago
  > Reservation is not granted based on the last name. It is granted based on the caste marked in the documents. Yes. I was responding to "why not change the last name". There is a correlation between some castes and last names, so changing the last name may seem as giving up on the caste-based reservation. ie, a practical reason to retain the family name.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

furyroad 6y ago

I am from the state of Tamil Nadu. Unlike other states, we don't use a last name. The official forms and documents of state government/schools will not have a last name field. If pressed for last name, we just use fathers name. The first time I had to give a last name was when I was >20 years old when applying for passport from the Indian government. (Federal govt. not the state govt.) My last name is my fathers first name. My fathers last name is his fathers first name. My grand fathers last name was his caste name. Till my grand fathers generation, caste name as last name was prevalent. It all changed with the Self-Respect movement led by social justice icon Periyar. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periyar_E._V._Ramasamy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periyar_E._V._Ramasamy At fist Self-Respect conference held on Feb 1929, Periyar passed a resolution to drop caste names. The press report about the conference reads “The necessity of the resolution to drop caste titles is strengthened because of the practice of discriminating persons on the basis of their names without knowing anything about their character, ability or intelligence. The demand that such discriminatory caste titles and religion-markers are abolished will appeal to all those in favour of unity and equality.” Source: https://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/all-in-your-name/article22986770.ece https://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/all-in-your-name/arti... It is rather popular to use the education qualifications after a persons name (like MBA, Masters in Engineering etc), as most seen on wedding invitations behind bride and grooms name, to emphasize on the importance of education and skills as a status marker rather than birth. Example: https://kingofcards.in/media/others/printing/templates/template4.jpg https://kingofcards.in/media/others/printing/templates/templ...

hiyer 6y ago
If you think caste discrimination does not exist in TN just because of this, you are fooling yourself. Politically powerful castes like Vanniyars and Gounders still discriminate against Dalits and other castes, especially in rural areas.
- furyroad 6y ago
  I don't disagree. The powerful classes still dominate the lower classes. Caste system is deeply rooted in the culture for thousand of years. It will take a very long time and massive efforts to eradicate it. Self-respect movement was one of the early efforts in the right direction and it had found great success in my opinion. I attribute my life progress to the effects of Self-respect movement. I was born in a poor low-caste family, raised by a single mother. I completed a STEM masters degree in India, migrated to the US and now work at one of the FAANG companies. I benefited from the educational and social policies of my state govt. and was able to push myself up despite financial and social disadvantages. The major turning point in my life was when I was able to secure a seat at the top technical college of the state through single-window counseling which was introduced by the state govt. the year before. Without that system, I would have applied to individual colleges separately (costs lot of money) and had been at the mercy of racially biased selection committees, dominated by the so called upper castes. I neither had the light skin, nor the deep pockets to pay for a "management seat". I made use of the best resources at the institution presented by the opportunity I wouldn't have got otherwise. It changed my life forever.

randomguy2379 6y ago

An even better approach is to just change your religion. I was born a hindu dalit but I converted and so have many of my friends and family. Religious conversions have become so common in India that states have started to bring out laws to curtail it. Casteism is a construct of Hinduism and other religions don't suffer from it in the same way as Hinduism does. So you can change your religion , your name and claim that you have no caste. Hindus have no problem seeing a converted christian as equal to them, but will refuse to see people from their own religion as equal.

naruvimama 6y ago
You really seem to have no idea about segregated churches and caste violence is greatest among the Christians. The church has been so successful in promoting caste divisions to convert people that it has caught on to them. Part of the reason why organised conversion is banned in some states is because of the tendency of the church to convert by hook or crook and the accompanying propaganda of hate. You should read up a bit about the apology made by the church for being responsible for the Rwandan genocide.
- muro 6y ago
  > You should read up a bit about the apology made by the church for being responsible for the Rwandan genocide. That's a misleading statement. The church was complicit, not responsible. Still reprehensible.
  - naruvimama 6y ago
    The church was responsible for promoting the division so they could convert. That is not just complicit but also responsible. If you are engaged in arson, and the church watches silently or hand out gas it is complicit. If it pours gas on the building so you can light it on fire it is responsible.
g8oz 6y ago
Convert and you might get beaten up by your local Bajrang Dal chapter.