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The caretakers of Sealand, the most stubborn micronation
- m4r35n357 6y agoHilarious stuff!
- Semaphor 6y agoLess detailed, but Wikipedia has a nice overview [0] of some things this only glossed over: > In August 1978, Alexander Achenbach, who describes himself as the Prime Minister of Sealand, hired several German and Dutch mercenaries to lead an attack on Sealand while Bates and his wife were in England. … > Germany then sent a diplomat from its London embassy to Sealand to negotiate for Achenbach's release. Roy Bates relented after several weeks of negotiations and subsequently claimed that the diplomat's visit constituted de facto recognition of Sealand by Germany. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Sealand https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Sealand
- cheschire 6y agoI wonder why it needs to qualify the title of "the Prime Minister of Sealand" with the statement "who describes himself as the..." That one issue alone seems to encapsulate this whole topic altogether.
- garmaine 6y agoTo be fair, is that really any different than any other government setup? They're all social institutions. Which is rather the point of micro-nations, I believe.
- Semaphor 6y agoI mean he established the Sealand Rebel Government as Government in Exile in Germany. I feel for an unrecgonized nation’s unrecognized rebel government "describes himself as" is very fitting ;)
- gadders 6y agoDon't forget HN's very own RDL that ran HavenCo from there: https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=rdl https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=rdl
- jacquesm 6y agoI still think a country is the ultimate start-up.
- Waterluvian 6y agoSeems like Musk agrees but is going planetary.
- dreen 6y agoI wish him well but AFAIK all struggles for independence ultimately boil down to military ability, regardless of any treaties and agreements.
- celticninja 6y agoPretty hard to shake your military stick at someone on Mars. He has already shown he can do weapons development too.
- fragmede 6y agoPre-SpaceX NASA was able to send multiple rovers to Mars so it seems yesterdays technology is already sufficient to nuke Mars.
- CerealFounder 6y agoHijack for good: If you guys love this story, read this: https://www.amazon.com/Unruly-Places-Spaces-Inscrutable-Geographies/dp/054410157X https://www.amazon.com/Unruly-Places-Spaces-Inscrutable-Geog... Its a book about places with odd borders, histories and futures that is tantalizing. The full Sealand story is told here an its breathtaking.
- ThePowerOfFuet 6y agoThis article sounds super interesting, but Atlas Obscura has an obnoxious (and illegal in the EU) cookie wall. Are there any other sources?
- totetsu 6y agohttp://archive.today/wEMn8 http://archive.today/wEMn8
- _-___________-_ 6y agoThere are technical solutions to this that allow you to still read the article, you know.
- BLKNSLVR 6y agoI get the feeling most micronations are pretty stubborn: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Hutt_River https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Hutt_River
- 082349872349872 6y agoSome not-so-micro nations exist briefly: declare independence from a former sovereign, then vote to be annexed by a new one. Although the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Hawaii https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Hawaii lasted a few years, the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Republic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Republic was in existence for under a month.
- briandear 6y agoTexas is probably the best example, but they existed as a republic for 10 years.
- yakireev 6y agoThe most recent example is probably Crimea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Crimea#Declaration_of_Independence_from_Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Crimea#Declaration...
- kwhitefoot 6y agoGood to see it's still a going concern.
- PoachedSausage 6y agoIt is surprising that there haven't been any more incursions by either government or privateers given that it seems its only guarded by one person at any time. I wonder what state the concrete caissons are in. Maybe the sea will reclaim Sealand in the end as it probably will not be easy or cheap to repair.
- ocdtrekkie 6y agoIndeed. And I imagine the political cost of taking it over is low, and as a starting place for an extralegal operation, the value of it is high. Presuming Sealand continues to be understood as outside the UK's jurisdiction, I imagine the right motivated investor could actually expand Sealand into a larger artificial body.
- _-___________-_ 6y agoA bit of "legal realism" here: if someone takes over Sealand and starts expanding it and doing anything the UK doesn't like, they will simply put a stop to it. International law only matters insofar as other nations are willing to use it, and nobody will care enough about Sealand.
- ocdtrekkie 6y agoSure, but to what extent could they operate without upsetting the UK? Some tax-free tourism? Probably get away with it. Running some sort of Epcot/Sidewalk Labs-esque experimental town on "land" nobody cares about... probably also workable. As long as it doesn't pose a danger to the UK and isn't distinctly criminal in nature, it's probably not going to get much attention.
- bluGill 6y agoIt isn't worth any government doing anything about so long as they don't do the types of things that a pirate would want to do. Thus it isn't interesting for pirates as it doesn't really give them anything more and a fixed location is a liability.
- aaron695 6y agoI think this is a good article on the theory of law and how it's quite paradoxical - Sealand, HavenCo, and the Rule of Law - James Grimmelmann https://scholarship.law.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2628&context=facpub https://scholarship.law.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?arti...
- SiempreViernes 6y agoSeems interesting, but that's got to be the worst footnote practice I've ever seen: notes 2 and 3 are used to reference something like 30 separate publications, along with maybe two comment, using only two very long sentences set in small font. Ugh, what a crime against typography.
- djaychela 6y agoIn a bit of synchronicity, my step son bought me a nice father's day present, a lordship of Sealand, so I am now Lord Darren Jones - although I'm not sure how far I can abuse this title... The document looks highly official though!
- whoopdedo 6y agoWhich reminds me of the guy who created The Kingdom of North Sudan as a birthday present for his daughter. Which I was going to link to the story of, but along the way found this more interesting write-up[1] about the disputed region that became the Kingdom. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/03/welcome-to-the-land-that-no-country-wants-bir-tawil https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/03/welcome-to-the...
- bufordtwain 6y agoGreetings fellow Lord of Sealand. I recently received my certificate also. It's a nice touch that the certificate is mailed using a postage stamp created by Sealand itself!
- m0xte 6y agoNext step ordained church of the subgenius minister!
- UniLifeChurch 6y agoOr the 'Universal Life Church,' you just need to fill out a form on their page to get your diploma. You'll be an ordained minister with great powers; sign up today. 10/10 would next -> next -> next again. It's really that easy.
- simlevesque 6y agoWow, I never thought I'd see you here of all places but it makes sense. Fellow catholic minister from the ULC living in Canada. Recently celebrated my sixth year: https://i.imgur.com/QkKV0Kc.jpg https://i.imgur.com/QkKV0Kc.jpg Definitely worth it.
- classified 6y agoThat photo of the Bateses still manages to look futuristic, and that was 1979. Good style never gets old.
- yencabulator 6y agoI'd say straight up James Bond movie villain.
- kilo_bravo_3 6y agoYou can call yourself a nation, but if the only reason you exist is the fact that the price of the fuel needed to ferry a police officer to your location and arrest you is more than what your country is worth, you're not a nation.
- ballenf 6y agoBy that metric there's a few macro nations that are "not a nation".
- bena 6y agoWith larger nations, there's also the cost of searching for the fugitive and also of dealing with the foreign nation itself (vis a vis police, military, etc). It's more than the cost of getting there. Sealand can be "conquered" on a whim. It exists solely at the pleasure of the UK.
- ocdtrekkie 6y agoNote that Sealand is outside of the UK's territorial waters. Technically speaking, that police officer can't legally arrest anyone on Sealand. Micronations tend to be declared in spots where to do geographic and legal oddity, no larger jurisdiction actually applies.
- jacquesm 6y agoHeh, maybe the EU could recognize Sealand and suddenly the 12 mile zone would work the other way... It would also save them having to re-make a lot of flags.
- PoachedSausage 6y agoNice idea. Half the UK population could apply for dual British/Sealand nationality and still be in the EU.
- jacquesm 6y agoIt would get pretty crowded there. Just storing the physical copies of the files may require adding an extension to Sealand :)