73 ms·

The first European ships noted in their logs that the island was devoid of trees, and that this was unusual, as other large islands of Polynesia were not. This

by koboll 6y ago

The first European ships noted in their logs that the island was devoid of trees, and that this was unusual, as other large islands of Polynesia were not. This is supported by fossil evidence. The disappearance of trees would severely limit the inhabitants' ability to find food, both because forests support a more diverse ecosystem and because lumber is necessary to build fishing boats. It's unlikely that the island's trees would vanish for any reason apart from human deforestation -- in fact, there is evidence that a vast majority of them were cut down by humans: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305440309003732?via%3Dihub https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030544030... It's certainly likely that European contact hastened the islanders' decline through diseases and other evils of colonization, but the theory here is built on... the fact that stone platforms were built after 1600? Okay. That doesn't really explain how the islanders cutting down all the forests on the island prior to European contact could have no effect on its population.

anonAndOn 6y ago
Not all of the trees were gone when the Europeans arrived, apparently. Sir David Attenborough has a toromiro wood carving. [0] [0]https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2000/apr/11/timradford https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2000/apr/11/timradford
- andromeduck 6y ago
  Why do you assume the carving was of fresh wood?
  - teruakohatu 6y ago
    Wood can last a thousand of years, or even hundreds of thousands of years, in the ground under the right conditions (where it won't rot or mineralize into stone/petrified wood).
dougmany 6y ago
Trees are nice but not having trees does not automatically mean collapse. I found this paper had many more arguments then the article. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/255726745_Ecological_Catastrophe_and_Collapse_The_Myth_of_'Ecocide'_on_Rapa_Nui_Easter_Island https://www.researchgate.net/publication/255726745_Ecologica...
- jojobas 6y ago
  Once you're done with trees, how do you replace your broken tools? Farming is hard even with plenty of wood.
- phkahler 6y ago
  >> Trees are nice but not having trees does not automatically mean collapse. No but the prior existence of trees means they were used and ran out.
AbrahamParangi 6y ago
Yeah the collapse theory is probably right in general if not the particulars, but don't underestimate European diseases. The Marquesans nearly got wiped out by them.
misja111 6y ago
The inhabitants of Rapa Nui had an agricultural system with ingenious ways to fertilise its soil. It is currently still used here and there. The trees were mostly cut to make way to provide more land for agriculture, so that the population could be fed. Rapa Nui's population eventually diminished by 90% after the first contact with Europeans, partly because of imported diseases and partly because inhabitants were captured and exported as slaves to South America, mostly Peru. Sources: https://www.hawaii.edu/news/2017/07/12/rapa-nui-people-cultivated-and-managed-crops/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CPrevious%20work%20has%20shown%20that,islanders%20may%20have%20added%20fertilizers.%E2%80%9D https://www.hawaii.edu/news/2017/07/12/rapa-nui-people-culti... https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Epidemics-of-introduced-diseases-on-Easter-Island-after-the-first-European-contact-in_fig4_272830262 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Epidemics-of-introduced-...
- idoubtit 6y ago
  Indeed, the inhabitants of Rapa Nui were well fed. I remember a archaeology paper that compared their nutrition with other pacific islands. The people of Easter Island were among the best fed peoples. IIRC, the women of Rapa Nui were only at the average level, but this was a social problem. The lack of trees did not impede the food availability. Here is the conclusion of a recent (2017) study of their diet: "Our results point to concerted efforts to manipulate agricultural soils, and suggest the prehistoric Rapa Nui population had extensive knowledge of how to overcome poor soil fertility, improve environmental conditions, and create a sustainable food supply. These activities demonstrate considerable adaptation and resilience to environmental challenges ‐ a finding that is inconsistent with an “ecocide” narrative." From https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5637906/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5637906/
sradman 6y ago
I guess it depends on the timing and the extent of the decline of trees. Jared Diamond’s assumption that an unsustainable tree collapse occurred before European arrival is a good one but this paper challenges some of the supporting evidence. As an alternative hypothesis, consider the impact of invasive species like rats on an island ecosystem. The tree level may have been very low but sustainable prior to the introduction of rats but the newly introduced perturbation may have caused full collapse.
mattlondon 6y ago
> It's certainly likely that European contact hastened the islanders' decline through diseases and other evils of colonization, I think it is not quite so simple as the usual European-colonialism tropes here. I think it is more interesting than that. I visited Easter Island a few years ago and had a really interesting Rapa Nui guide who taught us a lot over several days. Her implication (although she never really said it outright) was that the "first contact" with Europeans actually triggered a huge social upheaval: - The Rapa Nui people have been on their island doing their own thing for centuries without any outside contact, assuming they were the only people who existed on the only land that existed in an endless sea. They have a long-standing and established religion that prominently features the head status (Moai) - The first European visitor (Roggeveen) turns up and is clearly visible to all inhabitants (i.e. no rumors) and was peaceful and basically just made a few observations, took a few measurements/charts, and observed that all of the head statues were still standing (i.e. at that stage there was no violence, no slave taking etc - that came later). Then they just went away as abruptly as they arrived. - The Rapa Nui's world view has been totally shattered by the arrival of not only outsiders, but in totally unimaginable ships, clothing, skin colour, food, technology, weaponry etc. This was a collective "What the fuck?!" moment as the Europeans left them to deal with the consequences of this earth-shattering event (for them) - ??? for the next couple of centuries. - The next thing we know in the 1800s is that the old head statues have been abandoned and toppled, and an entirely new religion has taken over (Bird Man religion) and some really interesting things have happened, e.g. there is one of the statues that has a crude European ship carved onto its chest (1). Previously these statues were revered as the elders and ancestors etc, and yet this one ended up with the European's ship carved onto its chest. Was the statue abandoned and just re-used as a convenient blank canvas, or did the European ship somehow get woven into the existing religion? Fascinating. Perhaps the big changes in the Rapa Nui society were going to happen anyway, but for me to have the total earth-shattering revelation that there are not only other people in the world but that they are totally different only then to have them vanish as suddenly as they appeared with no explanation or way to contact them again etc and then being left alone in total isolation again has to to have a part to play. You can totally imagine the same thing happen to the earth today - rather than some grandiose & reverential alien "first contact" scenario where the sparkly friendly aliens respectfully come in peace and wish to speak to our world leaders etc, but actually what we get is some indifferent & uninterested aliens who turn up out-of-the-blue in orbit around the Earth in a way that every person on the planet can clearly see them with their own eyes. "Hey nice planet you have here - we're just going to take some measurements and plot your planet's orbit. We were actually looking for something else and we're not really interested you guys soooo, er.... yeah, bye." And then poof they're gone - our entire society would be totally turned upside down. Who were they? Where did they come from? Where are they going? Can we talk to them again? What is their technology like? Are they god/gods? Are these things compatible with our religions/morals/ethics? Why didn't they care more about me/us/our history/our culture? Cautionary tale? Perhaps. Would Christianity/Judaism/Islam/Buddhism/Sikhism/etc survive such an alien encountered unchanged/unscathed? I personally doubt it. 1 - https://imaginaisladepascua.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Moai-Ko-Kona-He-Roa-con-un-barco-tallado-Rano-Raraku-Isla-de-Pascua.jpg https://imaginaisladepascua.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/M...

by koboll 6y ago

anonAndOn 6y ago

Not all of the trees were gone when the Europeans arrived, apparently. Sir David Attenborough has a toromiro wood carving. [0] [0]https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2000/apr/11/timradford https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2000/apr/11/timradford

andromeduck 6y ago
Why do you assume the carving was of fresh wood?
- teruakohatu 6y ago
  Wood can last a thousand of years, or even hundreds of thousands of years, in the ground under the right conditions (where it won't rot or mineralize into stone/petrified wood).

dougmany 6y ago

Trees are nice but not having trees does not automatically mean collapse. I found this paper had many more arguments then the article. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/255726745_Ecological_Catastrophe_and_Collapse_The_Myth_of_'Ecocide'_on_Rapa_Nui_Easter_Island https://www.researchgate.net/publication/255726745_Ecologica...

jojobas 6y ago
Once you're done with trees, how do you replace your broken tools? Farming is hard even with plenty of wood.
phkahler 6y ago
>> Trees are nice but not having trees does not automatically mean collapse. No but the prior existence of trees means they were used and ran out.

AbrahamParangi 6y ago

Yeah the collapse theory is probably right in general if not the particulars, but don't underestimate European diseases. The Marquesans nearly got wiped out by them.

misja111 6y ago

The inhabitants of Rapa Nui had an agricultural system with ingenious ways to fertilise its soil. It is currently still used here and there. The trees were mostly cut to make way to provide more land for agriculture, so that the population could be fed. Rapa Nui's population eventually diminished by 90% after the first contact with Europeans, partly because of imported diseases and partly because inhabitants were captured and exported as slaves to South America, mostly Peru. Sources: https://www.hawaii.edu/news/2017/07/12/rapa-nui-people-cultivated-and-managed-crops/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CPrevious%20work%20has%20shown%20that,islanders%20may%20have%20added%20fertilizers.%E2%80%9D https://www.hawaii.edu/news/2017/07/12/rapa-nui-people-culti... https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Epidemics-of-introduced-diseases-on-Easter-Island-after-the-first-European-contact-in_fig4_272830262 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Epidemics-of-introduced-...

idoubtit 6y ago
Indeed, the inhabitants of Rapa Nui were well fed. I remember a archaeology paper that compared their nutrition with other pacific islands. The people of Easter Island were among the best fed peoples. IIRC, the women of Rapa Nui were only at the average level, but this was a social problem. The lack of trees did not impede the food availability. Here is the conclusion of a recent (2017) study of their diet: "Our results point to concerted efforts to manipulate agricultural soils, and suggest the prehistoric Rapa Nui population had extensive knowledge of how to overcome poor soil fertility, improve environmental conditions, and create a sustainable food supply. These activities demonstrate considerable adaptation and resilience to environmental challenges ‐ a finding that is inconsistent with an “ecocide” narrative." From https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5637906/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5637906/

sradman 6y ago

I guess it depends on the timing and the extent of the decline of trees. Jared Diamond’s assumption that an unsustainable tree collapse occurred before European arrival is a good one but this paper challenges some of the supporting evidence. As an alternative hypothesis, consider the impact of invasive species like rats on an island ecosystem. The tree level may have been very low but sustainable prior to the introduction of rats but the newly introduced perturbation may have caused full collapse.

mattlondon 6y ago

> It's certainly likely that European contact hastened the islanders' decline through diseases and other evils of colonization, I think it is not quite so simple as the usual European-colonialism tropes here. I think it is more interesting than that. I visited Easter Island a few years ago and had a really interesting Rapa Nui guide who taught us a lot over several days. Her implication (although she never really said it outright) was that the "first contact" with Europeans actually triggered a huge social upheaval: - The Rapa Nui people have been on their island doing their own thing for centuries without any outside contact, assuming they were the only people who existed on the only land that existed in an endless sea. They have a long-standing and established religion that prominently features the head status (Moai) - The first European visitor (Roggeveen) turns up and is clearly visible to all inhabitants (i.e. no rumors) and was peaceful and basically just made a few observations, took a few measurements/charts, and observed that all of the head statues were still standing (i.e. at that stage there was no violence, no slave taking etc - that came later). Then they just went away as abruptly as they arrived. - The Rapa Nui's world view has been totally shattered by the arrival of not only outsiders, but in totally unimaginable ships, clothing, skin colour, food, technology, weaponry etc. This was a collective "What the fuck?!" moment as the Europeans left them to deal with the consequences of this earth-shattering event (for them) - ??? for the next couple of centuries. - The next thing we know in the 1800s is that the old head statues have been abandoned and toppled, and an entirely new religion has taken over (Bird Man religion) and some really interesting things have happened, e.g. there is one of the statues that has a crude European ship carved onto its chest (1). Previously these statues were revered as the elders and ancestors etc, and yet this one ended up with the European's ship carved onto its chest. Was the statue abandoned and just re-used as a convenient blank canvas, or did the European ship somehow get woven into the existing religion? Fascinating. Perhaps the big changes in the Rapa Nui society were going to happen anyway, but for me to have the total earth-shattering revelation that there are not only other people in the world but that they are totally different only then to have them vanish as suddenly as they appeared with no explanation or way to contact them again etc and then being left alone in total isolation again has to to have a part to play. You can totally imagine the same thing happen to the earth today - rather than some grandiose & reverential alien "first contact" scenario where the sparkly friendly aliens respectfully come in peace and wish to speak to our world leaders etc, but actually what we get is some indifferent & uninterested aliens who turn up out-of-the-blue in orbit around the Earth in a way that every person on the planet can clearly see them with their own eyes. "Hey nice planet you have here - we're just going to take some measurements and plot your planet's orbit. We were actually looking for something else and we're not really interested you guys soooo, er.... yeah, bye." And then poof they're gone - our entire society would be totally turned upside down. Who were they? Where did they come from? Where are they going? Can we talk to them again? What is their technology like? Are they god/gods? Are these things compatible with our religions/morals/ethics? Why didn't they care more about me/us/our history/our culture? Cautionary tale? Perhaps. Would Christianity/Judaism/Islam/Buddhism/Sikhism/etc survive such an alien encountered unchanged/unscathed? I personally doubt it. 1 - https://imaginaisladepascua.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Moai-Ko-Kona-He-Roa-con-un-barco-tallado-Rano-Raraku-Isla-de-Pascua.jpg https://imaginaisladepascua.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/M...