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What if I just borrow your car when you're sleeping? You lose nothing. What if I break into your house and use your TV while you're at work? You lose nothing.

What if I just borrow your car when you're sleeping? You lose nothing. What if I break into your house and use your TV while you're at work? You lose nothing. What if I set up a tent on your lawn and take it down whenever you want to play frisbee? You lose nothing. What if I grab some girl's butt at a dance club? She loses nothing. As you can see, requiring an act to explicitly deprive someone of property is a slippery slope. There are dozens of examples of "borrowing" that just aren't done in polite society because the owner doesn't want them to be done. The same is even more true here. Piracy hurts the author's ability to sell books. Free copies just have that effect. Every normal human understands it. Only a few computer people like to pretend that their "borrowing" is somehow magic. Piracy destroys artists.

bawolff 6y ago
> What if I set up a tent on your lawn and take it down whenever you want to play frisbee? You lose nothing. Much of northern europe has a "freedom to roam" making this explicitly legal and acceptable (within certain limits). Nobody is saying that all law should be based in property. There are plenty of laws that aren't based in property and that is ok. E.g., we don't say murder is wrong because it deprives someone of property. > There are dozens of examples of "borrowing" that just aren't done in polite society because the owner doesn't want them to be done. And there are many examples of "borrowing" that are considered acceptable in polite society regardless of the "owner's" opinion. There are more factors in play then what the originator of the idea thinks of the matter. > Piracy hurts the author's ability to sell books. Free copies just have that effect. Every normal human understands it So? Society is not under a general responsibility to make people money. You can say the same thing about many acceptable activities: Negative critical reviews hurt the author's ability to sell books. Negative reviews just have that effect. Every normal human understands it.
- Chris2048 6y ago
  > Much of northern Europe has a "freedom to roam" I think this usually applies to large parks, forests and beaches etc; not residential lawns > there are many examples of "borrowing" that are considered acceptable can you give examples? of acceptable borrowing without consent, or in direct opposition to consent. > Society is not under a general responsibility to make people money What are the general responsibilities of society?
  - bawolff 6y ago
    > can you give examples? of acceptable borrowing without consent, or in direct opposition to consent. Well since we're talking about intellectual property, quoting is an obvious example. Often in debates (esp. Political) people will "borrow" their opposition's words against their will with the intention of making them look stupid. Most science involves working off other's ideas, without the ideas originator's consent (but attribution is required). > What are the general responsibilities of society? That's a heavy philosophical question, and answers will vary. Usually involves ensuring the administration of justice and having a monoply on violence. Sometimes providing basic neccesesities is included. People often do include enforcing physical property rights here (i have never heard of people including intellectual prop rights, although there probably are people who feel that way). In some communist states, the right for every person to have a job is assumed, which i suppose could be taken to mean a responsibility to make people money. In capitalistic socities there is no garuntee of business success; the fundamental principle being either you should make money on your own merit or go out of business. At most there is a responsibility to create a fair marketplace, but what that means varries a lot.
    - Chris2048 6y ago
      Hmm, but I'm only taking about specifically copyrighted work, or works where the author has explicitly expressed that the work is not publicly available. Most debates I see, the comments raise are wrt public comments, but otherwise I'd assume participants in a debate implicitly assume fair-use on relevant publications they have released. I believe science works the same, the derived work isn't without consent, because the consent is implicit. So far as discoveries are copyrightable, they do require consent, and if they aren't they are usually kept secret, as trade secrets. In the case of IP - it's pretty explicit (from the author) that consent is not granted without compensation.

bawolff 6y ago

> What if I set up a tent on your lawn and take it down whenever you want to play frisbee? You lose nothing. Much of northern europe has a "freedom to roam" making this explicitly legal and acceptable (within certain limits). Nobody is saying that all law should be based in property. There are plenty of laws that aren't based in property and that is ok. E.g., we don't say murder is wrong because it deprives someone of property. > There are dozens of examples of "borrowing" that just aren't done in polite society because the owner doesn't want them to be done. And there are many examples of "borrowing" that are considered acceptable in polite society regardless of the "owner's" opinion. There are more factors in play then what the originator of the idea thinks of the matter. > Piracy hurts the author's ability to sell books. Free copies just have that effect. Every normal human understands it So? Society is not under a general responsibility to make people money. You can say the same thing about many acceptable activities: Negative critical reviews hurt the author's ability to sell books. Negative reviews just have that effect. Every normal human understands it.

Chris2048 6y ago
> Much of northern Europe has a "freedom to roam" I think this usually applies to large parks, forests and beaches etc; not residential lawns > there are many examples of "borrowing" that are considered acceptable can you give examples? of acceptable borrowing without consent, or in direct opposition to consent. > Society is not under a general responsibility to make people money What are the general responsibilities of society?
- bawolff 6y ago
  > can you give examples? of acceptable borrowing without consent, or in direct opposition to consent. Well since we're talking about intellectual property, quoting is an obvious example. Often in debates (esp. Political) people will "borrow" their opposition's words against their will with the intention of making them look stupid. Most science involves working off other's ideas, without the ideas originator's consent (but attribution is required). > What are the general responsibilities of society? That's a heavy philosophical question, and answers will vary. Usually involves ensuring the administration of justice and having a monoply on violence. Sometimes providing basic neccesesities is included. People often do include enforcing physical property rights here (i have never heard of people including intellectual prop rights, although there probably are people who feel that way). In some communist states, the right for every person to have a job is assumed, which i suppose could be taken to mean a responsibility to make people money. In capitalistic socities there is no garuntee of business success; the fundamental principle being either you should make money on your own merit or go out of business. At most there is a responsibility to create a fair marketplace, but what that means varries a lot.
  - Chris2048 6y ago
    Hmm, but I'm only taking about specifically copyrighted work, or works where the author has explicitly expressed that the work is not publicly available. Most debates I see, the comments raise are wrt public comments, but otherwise I'd assume participants in a debate implicitly assume fair-use on relevant publications they have released. I believe science works the same, the derived work isn't without consent, because the consent is implicit. So far as discoveries are copyrightable, they do require consent, and if they aren't they are usually kept secret, as trade secrets. In the case of IP - it's pretty explicit (from the author) that consent is not granted without compensation.