6 ms·

I think at the very least the title should be Git Repo of Alleged Police Brutality During the 2020 George Floyd Protests. Like another commenter downthread, I

by zaroth 6y ago

I think at the very least the title should be Git Repo of Alleged Police Brutality During the 2020 George Floyd Protests. Like another commenter downthread, I spent some time looking through incident reports in my own State, and found some of them to either be simply unsubstantiated claims, or videos of police reasonably appearing to be doing the very dangerous job of managing a riot. There are valid concerns of the validity and objectivity of many of these alleged incident reports. By commingling the few truly reprehensible actions with objectively necessary riot control, the site loses its objectivity and fairness, and does harm to its intended goal. In Reddit parlance, it becomes a circle jerk. I think the fundamental problem with many of these incidents is that the provocation of rioting has been used, not in all cases but certainly in many, to incite a police response which is then filmed and condemned as if unprovoked or unnecessary. The vast majority of police are heroes. And every community depends on their police to provide a mission critical service. The ability of police to provide this service in cities like Minneapolis and NYC has been dramatically curtailed by a violent political uprising which has damaged billions of dollars of property and driven homicide rates up nearly 100% year over year. IMO the fatal flaw in the response to protests against police is to send police to stand in front of them and take the abuse. You don’t put protesters and counter-protests next to each other to face off. It seems to me particularly unfair and indignant to have black police officers on the line being screamed at by white protesters about Black Lives Matter, to stand silently while they are verbally denigrated and abused for doing their job, which can lawfully include using force to disperse a riot. If the target of a large protest is the police themselves, the National Guard should be called in to provide crowd control and defend life and property if needed. This has the double benefit of not providing a standing target for the protesters ire, and not creating a self-fulfilling prophecy / feedback loop of aggression.

triceratops 6y ago
> The vast majority of police are heroes. Define "hero". As has been noted many, many times across HN these past few weeks, "police officer" isn't even among the top 15 most dangerous professions in America. And even then police aren't legally required to do their job[1]. Most police are never called upon to do anything heroic, so we can't say if they are heroes or not. This type of blind veneration for police is weird and unhealthy. If you tell a child, or even an adult, they are great and perfect just for who they are, they're going to turn out spoiled rotten. Why do you think this is any different? Police are regular people. Some good, some bad, but mostly mixed. The systems they work in allow the bad police to get away with horrific crimes and punish the good police who try to do anything about it. 1. https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-police-do-not-have-a-constitutional-duty-to-protect.html https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-po...
- oh_sigh 6y ago
  Since when is hero defined as "the person who does the most dangerous profession"? Also, there is a world of difference between professions where accidents are common, and a profession where humans may be actively trying to kill you. A hero might be a person who knowingly risks life and limb for the safety and wellbeing of others. Even more heroic when those others are strangers (ie it is more heroic to rescue a stranger's child from a house fire than it is to rescue your own child from a house fire). Even more heroic than that is when you do it day in and day out(ie it is more heroic to be a firefigher, saving strangers every day, than it is to save a stranger once). So, if that is a reasonable analysis of heroism, some police can definitely be heroic. I'm not sure about the percentages though. I'm sure some police got into the profession because they wanted to be a big man with a gun. Others did it because they want to help the community they live in.
  - triceratops 6y ago
    A commonly accepted definition of hero is "performing a duty and/or serving others, even at great danger to oneself, often for little or no reward". So "how dangerous is the job?" seems relevant to me. > there is a world of difference between professions where accidents are common, and a profession where humans may be actively trying to kill you. A large fraction of police deaths on the job are traffic accidents.
    - oh_sigh 6y ago
      > So "how dangerous is the job?" seems relevant to me. How does the comparative danger of fields change how dangerous something is? If someone said "Shaq is really tall", would a reasonable response be "No he isn't. Yao Ming is taller"? > A large fraction of police deaths on the job are traffic accidents. Yes, that is one way cops die. But this seems decidedly different contextually than the dangers faced by, say, pizza delivery drivers, who also frequently die in car accidents. Presumably, police officers die in car accidents because they are rushing to the scene of a crime or to a place where someone needs help. Pizza delivery drivers die in car accidents commonly because they are rushing to improve the tip they might get, or to be able to deliver more pizzas and get more tips.
mundo 6y ago
You could submit a PR. And if you're commenting here instead because you know the change would not be accepted, well, there's your answer. edit: Downvote away, but the fact that you can't simply correct the record might be a clue that the distinction between police brutality and "necessary riot control" is not as objective as you suppose it to be.
EForEndeavour 6y ago
The "vast majority of police" turn a blind eye to crimes their coworkers commmit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_wall_of_silence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_wall_of_silence
- Forbo 6y ago
  I appreciate the link to the Wikipedia article, but I don't see anything about statistics indicating a majority. Did I miss something in my perusing of the article? Edit: I was able to pull this citation from a previous discussion regarding police and perjury: Myron W. Orfield, Jr., Deterrence, Perjury, and the Heater Factor, supra note 13, at 83: > Respondents, including prosecutors, estimate that police commit perjury between 20% and 50% of the time they testify on Fourth Amendment issues. It should also be noted that many of these respondents did not consider lying at a suppression hearing perjury, infra text accompanying note 47, which would have the effect of artificially deflating these percentages.
  - Uehreka 6y ago
    If a majority of police are in fact suppressing evidence of wrongdoing, then it would be difficult to prove, because statistics that rely on police reporting are going to be rather suspect.
  - stevens32 6y ago
    It's possible the police forces are a body of people who have a strong us-vs-them culture. On the one hand it probably helps them execute their sometimes dangerous job, on the other hand it bleeds into symptoms like the blue wall of silence.
  - int_19h 6y ago
    This is one of those cases where absence of evidence is evidence, to some extent. We do know that police brutality and abuse of power happens regularly, because it gets recorded and prosecuted. But when you look at those prosecutions, the initial evidence rarely comes from other police officers, even though the offending actions are committed around them. If most cops are good cops, you'd expect most such prosecutions to be due to the perpetrators being reported by their colleagues. We can also look at what happens to cops who do become whistleblowers - it does happen, after all. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any case that ended well for the whistleblower long-term - best case, they get cold shoulder and silent treatment until they resign; and worst case is something like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Schoolcraft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Schoolcraft Note, by the way, that in this story, it was basically the entire precinct involved one way or the other to gang up on the whistleblower, including his entire management chain. And if you believe Adrian, then manager involvement went all the way up to NYPD Commissioner. I think at that point, it's not unreasonable to assume that in NYPD, at least, on the balance of probabilities (i.e. more likely than not), "the vast majority of police turn a blind eye" is correct, just based on this one case.
monadic2 6y ago
Imagine looking at the cacrceral state and saying “you know what, this is a great response to a hard problem”.
Pfhreak 6y ago
> The vast majority of police are heroes. Citation very much needed.
monocasa 6y ago
When the entire force quit (their duties, not quitting taking a salary) over their coworkers being charged for pushing a elderly man onto the pavement and walking away as he bleeds out of his ears unconscious, then it's 59/59 cops who aren't heroes. When reporting police misconduct internally is met with being charged with filing a false report and being kicked off the force, or being committed to an institution until you can talk to someone you trust who can leak a recording to the press, yes it is the vast majority police upholding this system that are not heroes. When in my city, the only cop to be reprimanded was the one stupid enough to instagram post "let's start a riot", but not the others attacking press and attacking peaceful bystanders, sending the institutional message that brutality is OK but you have to keep your mask on wrt to social media, yes the represent a system of institutional oppression.
- hbt 6y ago
  When cops get to purge their own disciplinary records and keeping their misconduct secret; they don't get to be called 'heroes'. They are a tool of social control only interested in the perception of truth, trust and transparency. Pushing whatever narrative serves their interests. https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona-investigations/2019/08/23/phoenix-police-routinely-purges-officer-misconduct-discipline-records/1955828001/ https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona-investiga...

by zaroth 6y ago

triceratops 6y ago

> The vast majority of police are heroes. Define "hero". As has been noted many, many times across HN these past few weeks, "police officer" isn't even among the top 15 most dangerous professions in America. And even then police aren't legally required to do their job[1]. Most police are never called upon to do anything heroic, so we can't say if they are heroes or not. This type of blind veneration for police is weird and unhealthy. If you tell a child, or even an adult, they are great and perfect just for who they are, they're going to turn out spoiled rotten. Why do you think this is any different? Police are regular people. Some good, some bad, but mostly mixed. The systems they work in allow the bad police to get away with horrific crimes and punish the good police who try to do anything about it. 1. https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-police-do-not-have-a-constitutional-duty-to-protect.html https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-po...

oh_sigh 6y ago
Since when is hero defined as "the person who does the most dangerous profession"? Also, there is a world of difference between professions where accidents are common, and a profession where humans may be actively trying to kill you. A hero might be a person who knowingly risks life and limb for the safety and wellbeing of others. Even more heroic when those others are strangers (ie it is more heroic to rescue a stranger's child from a house fire than it is to rescue your own child from a house fire). Even more heroic than that is when you do it day in and day out(ie it is more heroic to be a firefigher, saving strangers every day, than it is to save a stranger once). So, if that is a reasonable analysis of heroism, some police can definitely be heroic. I'm not sure about the percentages though. I'm sure some police got into the profession because they wanted to be a big man with a gun. Others did it because they want to help the community they live in.
- triceratops 6y ago
  A commonly accepted definition of hero is "performing a duty and/or serving others, even at great danger to oneself, often for little or no reward". So "how dangerous is the job?" seems relevant to me. > there is a world of difference between professions where accidents are common, and a profession where humans may be actively trying to kill you. A large fraction of police deaths on the job are traffic accidents.
  - oh_sigh 6y ago
    > So "how dangerous is the job?" seems relevant to me. How does the comparative danger of fields change how dangerous something is? If someone said "Shaq is really tall", would a reasonable response be "No he isn't. Yao Ming is taller"? > A large fraction of police deaths on the job are traffic accidents. Yes, that is one way cops die. But this seems decidedly different contextually than the dangers faced by, say, pizza delivery drivers, who also frequently die in car accidents. Presumably, police officers die in car accidents because they are rushing to the scene of a crime or to a place where someone needs help. Pizza delivery drivers die in car accidents commonly because they are rushing to improve the tip they might get, or to be able to deliver more pizzas and get more tips.

mundo 6y ago

You could submit a PR. And if you're commenting here instead because you know the change would not be accepted, well, there's your answer. edit: Downvote away, but the fact that you can't simply correct the record might be a clue that the distinction between police brutality and "necessary riot control" is not as objective as you suppose it to be.

EForEndeavour 6y ago

The "vast majority of police" turn a blind eye to crimes their coworkers commmit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_wall_of_silence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_wall_of_silence

Forbo 6y ago
I appreciate the link to the Wikipedia article, but I don't see anything about statistics indicating a majority. Did I miss something in my perusing of the article? Edit: I was able to pull this citation from a previous discussion regarding police and perjury: Myron W. Orfield, Jr., Deterrence, Perjury, and the Heater Factor, supra note 13, at 83: > Respondents, including prosecutors, estimate that police commit perjury between 20% and 50% of the time they testify on Fourth Amendment issues. It should also be noted that many of these respondents did not consider lying at a suppression hearing perjury, infra text accompanying note 47, which would have the effect of artificially deflating these percentages.
- Uehreka 6y ago
  If a majority of police are in fact suppressing evidence of wrongdoing, then it would be difficult to prove, because statistics that rely on police reporting are going to be rather suspect.
- stevens32 6y ago
  It's possible the police forces are a body of people who have a strong us-vs-them culture. On the one hand it probably helps them execute their sometimes dangerous job, on the other hand it bleeds into symptoms like the blue wall of silence.
- int_19h 6y ago
  This is one of those cases where absence of evidence is evidence, to some extent. We do know that police brutality and abuse of power happens regularly, because it gets recorded and prosecuted. But when you look at those prosecutions, the initial evidence rarely comes from other police officers, even though the offending actions are committed around them. If most cops are good cops, you'd expect most such prosecutions to be due to the perpetrators being reported by their colleagues. We can also look at what happens to cops who do become whistleblowers - it does happen, after all. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any case that ended well for the whistleblower long-term - best case, they get cold shoulder and silent treatment until they resign; and worst case is something like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Schoolcraft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Schoolcraft Note, by the way, that in this story, it was basically the entire precinct involved one way or the other to gang up on the whistleblower, including his entire management chain. And if you believe Adrian, then manager involvement went all the way up to NYPD Commissioner. I think at that point, it's not unreasonable to assume that in NYPD, at least, on the balance of probabilities (i.e. more likely than not), "the vast majority of police turn a blind eye" is correct, just based on this one case.

monadic2 6y ago

Imagine looking at the cacrceral state and saying “you know what, this is a great response to a hard problem”.

Pfhreak 6y ago

> The vast majority of police are heroes. Citation very much needed.

monocasa 6y ago

When the entire force quit (their duties, not quitting taking a salary) over their coworkers being charged for pushing a elderly man onto the pavement and walking away as he bleeds out of his ears unconscious, then it's 59/59 cops who aren't heroes. When reporting police misconduct internally is met with being charged with filing a false report and being kicked off the force, or being committed to an institution until you can talk to someone you trust who can leak a recording to the press, yes it is the vast majority police upholding this system that are not heroes. When in my city, the only cop to be reprimanded was the one stupid enough to instagram post "let's start a riot", but not the others attacking press and attacking peaceful bystanders, sending the institutional message that brutality is OK but you have to keep your mask on wrt to social media, yes the represent a system of institutional oppression.

hbt 6y ago
When cops get to purge their own disciplinary records and keeping their misconduct secret; they don't get to be called 'heroes'. They are a tool of social control only interested in the perception of truth, trust and transparency. Pushing whatever narrative serves their interests. https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona-investigations/2019/08/23/phoenix-police-routinely-purges-officer-misconduct-discipline-records/1955828001/ https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona-investiga...