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Frankly, I believe that a lot of people who call themselves Athiests are in fact Agnostics; and don't really stop to think about the difference. I would ventur

by icey 18y ago

Frankly, I believe that a lot of people who call themselves Athiests are in fact Agnostics; and don't really stop to think about the difference. I would venture to guess that most scientists especially are agnostic because it fits the scientific method better - we can not presume to know what we cannot measure, and all that. Atheism is the idea that we know that there is know higher power. Any scientist has to know that it is impossible to have that absolute knowledge because we have no tests to prove or disprove the hypothesis.

randallsquared 18y ago
There is some confusion here, I'll agree. I made the argument earlier in this thread that not only do we have no tests to prove or disprove theism, we cannot have any such tests, because theism and atheism are statements about what's beyond our (philosophical) universe. Any god you can formulate a test for isn't really God-the-Creator-of-All in the first place. So, belief in God, or the lack thereof, is just an assumption. This assumption will influence your actions, of course, and belief or the absence of it may well be beneficial or harmful. Either you live your life as if God exists, or you don't. If you don't, you might as well call yourself an atheist... and that's why I do.
- icey 18y ago
  The difference is subtle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism And largely an exercise in classification. Still, it's handy knowledge to have, should you enjoy that sort of thing.
maw 18y ago
I disagree. I think most atheists are, strictly speaking, agnostics (even if some may not know the term agnostic). When pressed, we'll concede that, no, we don't _really_ know whether a Creator exists. However, our doubts are so very small that, for all practical purposes, it's more convenient, and not really any less honest, to think and argue as though we were entirely sure. Conversely, I think that intellectually honest believers have a similar but opposite belief. Although, as a nonbeliever myself, I have a hard time putting myself in their shoes, or my brain inside their skulls, so maybe I'm mistaken here.
ken 18y ago
No, it's worse than that. I think we know well enough that we're agnostic. It's just that agnostics have even worse PR than atheists. Look at the digg survey this article links to: there's no option for "agnostic". Did the agnostics choose "atheist" or "other"? Either way, they're hidden. Look at the photo spread: it lists "Famous Agnostics/Atheists", as if they're the same thing, but at least half are arguably agnostic: - Darwin: self-described agnostic; claimed he had "never been an athiest" - Einstein: "My position concerning God is that of an agnostic." - Edison: apparently a lifelong agnostic - Gates: can't find a clear statement, but said in an interview "I don't know if there's a god or not" Look at the article itself: there's no mention of agnosticism at all. They're simply using a photo of a famous agnostic to bolster an argument about atheism. I believe that a lot of us who are (and rightfully claim to be) agnostic are being labeled "atheist" by people who don't know or care.
- gizmo 18y ago
  Even atheists don't -know- whether there's a god or not. So the statement Gates made sounds like the statement from a politically correct atheist. Einstein also considered the idea of a personal god very implausible. I think an agnostic is somebody who doesn't know whether god exists, but considers it a 50/50 situation. Both sides are equally plausible. A fence-sitter, if you will. An atheist thinks extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and that the evidence for god doesn't stack up. Therefore atheists are forced to conclude there probably is no god. Or simply said: there is no god. Even though we all admit we may be wrong.
  - icey 18y ago
    I disagree with you on this point. Atheists make the claim that there is definitively no god, just as theists make the claim that there is one definitively.
    - gizmo 18y ago
      All people I know who label themself atheist accept they might be wrong. I don't think atheists exist that claim to know with absolute certainty that no god could possibly exist. In fact, I'm pretty sure not a single person reading HN is an atheist by your definition. Even Richard Dawkins is an agnostic by your definition. I can only conclude that your definition does't make sense. Challenge: find me an atheist who fits your definition. You'll find none.
icey 18y ago
Ack, what a terrible typo I've made. I intended to state that "Atheism is the idea that we know there is NO higher power." This is why you should not comment before your first coffee of the day.

by icey 18y ago

randallsquared 18y ago

There is some confusion here, I'll agree. I made the argument earlier in this thread that not only do we have no tests to prove or disprove theism, we cannot have any such tests, because theism and atheism are statements about what's beyond our (philosophical) universe. Any god you can formulate a test for isn't really God-the-Creator-of-All in the first place. So, belief in God, or the lack thereof, is just an assumption. This assumption will influence your actions, of course, and belief or the absence of it may well be beneficial or harmful. Either you live your life as if God exists, or you don't. If you don't, you might as well call yourself an atheist... and that's why I do.

icey 18y ago
The difference is subtle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism And largely an exercise in classification. Still, it's handy knowledge to have, should you enjoy that sort of thing.

maw 18y ago

I disagree. I think most atheists are, strictly speaking, agnostics (even if some may not know the term agnostic). When pressed, we'll concede that, no, we don't _really_ know whether a Creator exists. However, our doubts are so very small that, for all practical purposes, it's more convenient, and not really any less honest, to think and argue as though we were entirely sure. Conversely, I think that intellectually honest believers have a similar but opposite belief. Although, as a nonbeliever myself, I have a hard time putting myself in their shoes, or my brain inside their skulls, so maybe I'm mistaken here.

ken 18y ago

No, it's worse than that. I think we know well enough that we're agnostic. It's just that agnostics have even worse PR than atheists. Look at the digg survey this article links to: there's no option for "agnostic". Did the agnostics choose "atheist" or "other"? Either way, they're hidden. Look at the photo spread: it lists "Famous Agnostics/Atheists", as if they're the same thing, but at least half are arguably agnostic: - Darwin: self-described agnostic; claimed he had "never been an athiest" - Einstein: "My position concerning God is that of an agnostic." - Edison: apparently a lifelong agnostic - Gates: can't find a clear statement, but said in an interview "I don't know if there's a god or not" Look at the article itself: there's no mention of agnosticism at all. They're simply using a photo of a famous agnostic to bolster an argument about atheism. I believe that a lot of us who are (and rightfully claim to be) agnostic are being labeled "atheist" by people who don't know or care.

gizmo 18y ago
Even atheists don't -know- whether there's a god or not. So the statement Gates made sounds like the statement from a politically correct atheist. Einstein also considered the idea of a personal god very implausible. I think an agnostic is somebody who doesn't know whether god exists, but considers it a 50/50 situation. Both sides are equally plausible. A fence-sitter, if you will. An atheist thinks extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and that the evidence for god doesn't stack up. Therefore atheists are forced to conclude there probably is no god. Or simply said: there is no god. Even though we all admit we may be wrong.
- icey 18y ago
  I disagree with you on this point. Atheists make the claim that there is definitively no god, just as theists make the claim that there is one definitively.
  - gizmo 18y ago
    All people I know who label themself atheist accept they might be wrong. I don't think atheists exist that claim to know with absolute certainty that no god could possibly exist. In fact, I'm pretty sure not a single person reading HN is an atheist by your definition. Even Richard Dawkins is an agnostic by your definition. I can only conclude that your definition does't make sense. Challenge: find me an atheist who fits your definition. You'll find none.

icey 18y ago

Ack, what a terrible typo I've made. I intended to state that "Atheism is the idea that we know there is NO higher power." This is why you should not comment before your first coffee of the day.