5 ms·

For the very poor, a short (few days) stint in jail would be far preferable to having your car impounded. That's the problem with these debates about penalties

by wahern 6y ago

For the very poor, a short (few days) stint in jail would be far preferable to having your car impounded. That's the problem with these debates about penalties--for the very poor, any penalty might be life destroying. But then how do you incentivize certain kinds of behavior? And how do you determine when somebody is too poor to be subject to any kind of penalty? Any loopholes you create will always be abused by the rich and powerful because that's the very definition of power--capable of bending the system to your advantage. The real problem is that the poor are very often unplugged from civil society as experienced by the middle classes. They don't have a stake in it. Rather than just throw up our hands, if we're serious about the plight of poverty and its ill effects, we should be more proactive. Keep the penalties, because jail time is something everybody understands, no matter how poor you are. But be proactive about not only enforcement but remediation. Send the darned judges to the people rather than making the people come to the judge. If all the person can afford is a quarter, then take the quarter and thank them for their time and their participation. The goal afterall isn't punishment for punishment's sake, it's to heal the wounds to civil society caused by law breaking, repairing the relationship between the offender and the community, and bringing the offender back into the fold. If the offender doesn't have any sense of a personal relationship with the state, then punishment imposed from a distance can't meet even half of its function. Moreover, no penalty whatsoever, or one with no teeth, does absolutely nothing except reinforce the estrangement, which is worse. It's like leaving the mentally ill on the street to rot to death out of some absurd sense of individual liberty; it functions only to make the non-mentally ill feel more secure in their privileged circumstances, rather than addressing any of the real underlying issues.

ksdale 6y ago
This is excellent, thank you.
elbigbad 6y ago
> For the very poor, a short (few days) stint in jail would be far preferable to having your car impounded. This is probably true, but a car impoundment isn't a first pass at punishment. It would presumably be after someone is a severe repeat offender with no remorse. It's okay to set a maximum punishment, say car impoundment, and then judge from the fact pattern that someone deserves the max punishment. I do hope that the max punishment is less preferable than other hypothetical punishments. > The real problem is that the poor are very often unplugged from civil society as experienced by the middle classes. They don't have a stake in it. Rather than just throw up our hands, if we're serious about the plight of poverty and its ill effects, we should be more proactive. Keep the penalties, because jail time is something everybody understands, no matter how poor you are. But be proactive about not only enforcement but remediation. Send the darned judges to the people rather than making the people come to the judge. If all the person can afford is a quarter, then take the quarter and thank them for their time and their participation. This is a fine take, but is nearly impossible to do wholesale because there are so many entrenched interests. You're talking about a fundamental change (that I agree would be good) to the whole justice system and its goals, which isn't practical in any sense. But in this hypothetical world where the whole justice system is changed, I might agree that jail time is something that could be on the table for speeding tickets. However, that is not going to happen anytime soon, and certainly not all at once. While we ponder how to enact a total overhaul of the justice system, let's make speeding tickets not have jail time as a punishment. > The goal afterall isn't punishment for punishment's sake, it's to heal the wounds to civil society caused by law breaking, repairing the relationship between the offender and the community, and bringing the offender back into the fold. If the offender doesn't have any sense of a personal relationship with the state, then punishment imposed from a distance can't meet even half of its function. Moreover, no penalty whatsoever, or one with no teeth, does absolutely nothing except reinforce the estrangement, which is worse. It's like leaving the mentally ill on the street to rot to death out of some absurd sense of individual liberty; it functions only to make the non-mentally ill feel more secure in their privileged circumstances, rather than addressing any of the real underlying issues. This is super debatable and there are many schools of thought on the goals of punishment. Some say people should be punished for punishment's sake, and indeed the way sentences are handed out in many cases reinforces that this is the prevailing view.
alasdair_ 6y ago
>But then how do you incentivize certain kinds of behavior? And how do you determine when somebody is too poor to be subject to any kind of penalty? Any loopholes you create will always be abused by the rich and powerful because that's the very definition of power--capable of bending the system to your advantage. Base the fine on income. Say, a traffic ticket is 0.1% of your income, while running a red light is 1% and a DUI could be 10%.
- tekknik 6y ago
  This is how fines are supposed to be imposed already. It’s up to the judge to decide what’s appropriate. The problem is when you get a judge that likes to impose their flavor of the law.
Red_Leaves_Flyy 6y ago
If they're that poor, start by paying them to not be poor. Wait a while. Check back in. reevaluate.
justinclift 6y ago
> For the very poor, a short (few days) stint in jail would be far preferable to having your car impounded. Wouldn't it be done as "they go to jail, but still owe the money afterwards"?
burfog 6y ago
I don't agree that "jail time is something everybody understands, no matter how poor you are". The biggest impact, by far, is on the working people. The rich would be somewhat miserable for a time, but that's it. After jail they can go back to their rich lifestyle. The poor can be miserable or not, depending on exact level of "poor". Freedom is lost, but with hot meals and a roof and medical care, it's not all bad. People have been known to purposely commit minor crimes in from of the police, or to self-report by phoning from the scene of the crime, so that they could go to jail. Working people of all levels are devastated. At the low end, failing to show up for work on time is cause for termination. At the high end, failed background checks will make the person unemployable by an entire industry or career field. Bills had been getting paid, but that ends, and the family is evicted. All belongings are likely lost; getting them moved isn't so easy while passing the days in jail. Divorce is likely. Cars will be repossessed. The person leaves jail with no belongings, no money, no family, no job, and no possibility of getting a similar job. The working people are rightly terrified of jail. It usually keeps them in line. When it doesn't, it transitions them to being poor.

by wahern 6y ago

ksdale 6y ago

This is excellent, thank you.

elbigbad 6y ago

> For the very poor, a short (few days) stint in jail would be far preferable to having your car impounded. This is probably true, but a car impoundment isn't a first pass at punishment. It would presumably be after someone is a severe repeat offender with no remorse. It's okay to set a maximum punishment, say car impoundment, and then judge from the fact pattern that someone deserves the max punishment. I do hope that the max punishment is less preferable than other hypothetical punishments. > The real problem is that the poor are very often unplugged from civil society as experienced by the middle classes. They don't have a stake in it. Rather than just throw up our hands, if we're serious about the plight of poverty and its ill effects, we should be more proactive. Keep the penalties, because jail time is something everybody understands, no matter how poor you are. But be proactive about not only enforcement but remediation. Send the darned judges to the people rather than making the people come to the judge. If all the person can afford is a quarter, then take the quarter and thank them for their time and their participation. This is a fine take, but is nearly impossible to do wholesale because there are so many entrenched interests. You're talking about a fundamental change (that I agree would be good) to the whole justice system and its goals, which isn't practical in any sense. But in this hypothetical world where the whole justice system is changed, I might agree that jail time is something that could be on the table for speeding tickets. However, that is not going to happen anytime soon, and certainly not all at once. While we ponder how to enact a total overhaul of the justice system, let's make speeding tickets not have jail time as a punishment. > The goal afterall isn't punishment for punishment's sake, it's to heal the wounds to civil society caused by law breaking, repairing the relationship between the offender and the community, and bringing the offender back into the fold. If the offender doesn't have any sense of a personal relationship with the state, then punishment imposed from a distance can't meet even half of its function. Moreover, no penalty whatsoever, or one with no teeth, does absolutely nothing except reinforce the estrangement, which is worse. It's like leaving the mentally ill on the street to rot to death out of some absurd sense of individual liberty; it functions only to make the non-mentally ill feel more secure in their privileged circumstances, rather than addressing any of the real underlying issues. This is super debatable and there are many schools of thought on the goals of punishment. Some say people should be punished for punishment's sake, and indeed the way sentences are handed out in many cases reinforces that this is the prevailing view.

alasdair_ 6y ago

>But then how do you incentivize certain kinds of behavior? And how do you determine when somebody is too poor to be subject to any kind of penalty? Any loopholes you create will always be abused by the rich and powerful because that's the very definition of power--capable of bending the system to your advantage. Base the fine on income. Say, a traffic ticket is 0.1% of your income, while running a red light is 1% and a DUI could be 10%.

tekknik 6y ago
This is how fines are supposed to be imposed already. It’s up to the judge to decide what’s appropriate. The problem is when you get a judge that likes to impose their flavor of the law.

Red_Leaves_Flyy 6y ago

If they're that poor, start by paying them to not be poor. Wait a while. Check back in. reevaluate.

justinclift 6y ago

> For the very poor, a short (few days) stint in jail would be far preferable to having your car impounded. Wouldn't it be done as "they go to jail, but still owe the money afterwards"?

burfog 6y ago

I don't agree that "jail time is something everybody understands, no matter how poor you are". The biggest impact, by far, is on the working people. The rich would be somewhat miserable for a time, but that's it. After jail they can go back to their rich lifestyle. The poor can be miserable or not, depending on exact level of "poor". Freedom is lost, but with hot meals and a roof and medical care, it's not all bad. People have been known to purposely commit minor crimes in from of the police, or to self-report by phoning from the scene of the crime, so that they could go to jail. Working people of all levels are devastated. At the low end, failing to show up for work on time is cause for termination. At the high end, failed background checks will make the person unemployable by an entire industry or career field. Bills had been getting paid, but that ends, and the family is evicted. All belongings are likely lost; getting them moved isn't so easy while passing the days in jail. Divorce is likely. Cars will be repossessed. The person leaves jail with no belongings, no money, no family, no job, and no possibility of getting a similar job. The working people are rightly terrified of jail. It usually keeps them in line. When it doesn't, it transitions them to being poor.