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I was admiring Sutro tower on my morning walk, and realized if we tried to build Sutro tower today it could never happen. We couldn't build another bridge, tunn

I was admiring Sutro tower on my morning walk, and realized if we tried to build Sutro tower today it could never happen. We couldn't build another bridge, tunnel, or anything. Imagine the laughs if you proposed another bay crossing. It's been made impossible to change or develop San Francisco. I don't think the future is here anymore.

vkou 6y ago
That's the natural consequence of the value of land eclipsing the value of the economic activity generated by that land. It makes doing anything with land that ruffles anyone's feathers a nightmare. In no sane universe should a house cost millions of dollars - multiple decades of a person's labour. Yet, thanks to easy access to credit, and bad property tax policy, here we are.
carapace 6y ago
> We couldn't build another bridge, tunnel, or anything. We just built a bridge. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco–Oakland_Bay_Bridge#Eastern_section_replacement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco–Oakland_Bay_Brid... And dug a tunnel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Subway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Subway
- justinzollars 6y ago
  The bridge was a replacement, and the tunnel is a decade late and still not complete. Both are way over budget. China build 16,000 miles of fully connected high speed rail in the same period of time. I'm going to stand by my statement that the future is not in San Francisco.
  - jordonwii 6y ago
    > I'm going to stand by my statement that the future is not in San Francisco I don't see why this follows. :) SF is a beautiful and diverse city and a hub for (at least one) of the biggest and most innovative industries in the world. This is often true in spite of the Bay area's government, but imo that's the good news: government is fixable. Rather than giving up I try to channel my frustration into volunteering and donating to groups that are working on these problems: YIMBY Action (yimbyaction.org) has clubs throughout the Bay Area that advocate for easing restrictions on building housing and transit, operating small businesses, etc; Seamless (seamlessbayarea.org) also works on improving transit governance throughout the Bay Area.
  - carapace 6y ago
    > The bridge was a replacement Yeah, a whole new bridge to replace the old one. Have you seen it? It's nice. They put lights on it and it makes patterns at night. > the tunnel is a decade late and still not complete. But it's there, right? (Technically not there.) You don't doubt that it will get finished? > Both are way over budget. But they exist, right? If you want to talk about how the Millennium Tower tilts, or the Transbay Terminal cracked, or the sidewalks in the new Mission Bay are abandoning the buildings and sinking into the bay, let's rap. But you can't claim we don't build. We build. > China build 16,000 miles of fully connected high speed rail in the same period of time. If you want to admire the CCP for the very real economic revolution they have accomplished in the last few decades we can do that too, as long as we also talk the fucked up things like how the Chinese people can't use the fully connected high speed rail to move to a different city without government permission. Look, China has done some crazy impressive things like building cities and railroad and so on, but they're also playing catch-up, lifting hundreds of millions of people from archaic poverty to modern semi-luxury. We did it last century. (Not on the same scale, of course, but we built our cities and railroads and interstate highways and such already, is my point.) > the future is not in San Francisco. Well it never was, except in Star Trek. These tech companies don't come to SF for the city itself: they ruined the city. They're here for vanity mostly, not solid economics. The East Bay over the hill makes way more sense. (FWIW if I were starting a startup I'd do it in Davis.) Believe me when I say that the old timers in SF (who survived the tech onslaught) can't wait to see the tech scene move on. We will not miss "the future" at all.
jordonwii 6y ago
Not only could we not build it today, we can barely modify it today: https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/heatherknight/article/Confusion-conspiracy-theories-humor-14963769.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/heatherknight/article/Co... > But despite not a single resident registering a complaint about the antenna work — a modern-day miracle! — getting the permit from the city's Planning Department took two years. Approval came just as special crews arrived to do the work. > “It was held up for no good reason,” Hyams said, echoing a common gripe about our city's slow Planning Department, which mirrors the slowness of just about every department.
- justinzollars 6y ago
  We should just close down the planning department or change its mission to mandate very very fast development.
  - jordonwii 6y ago
    > change its mission to mandate very very fast development While no one's going quite this far yet (alas), the mayor's approach actually isn't too far from this, e.g. for housing: > The new measure would require an approval process of no longer than six months for projects that meet existing zoning rules...[1] or for SMBs: > the ballot measure would require that permit applications for storefront uses that are allowed by the current zoning be reviewed within 30 days, compared to what can sometimes be months of review [2] Unfortunately the first one is postponed indefinitely because COVID made signature collection impossible, but the second will be on the ballot in November. [1] https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/san-francisco/sf-mayor-announces-ballot-measure-to-build-more-affordable-homes/2227802/ https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/san-francisco/sf-mayor... [2] https://sfmayor.org/article/mayor-london-breed-introduces-ballot-measure-support-san-francisco-small-businesses https://sfmayor.org/article/mayor-london-breed-introduces-ba...

vkou 6y ago

That's the natural consequence of the value of land eclipsing the value of the economic activity generated by that land. It makes doing anything with land that ruffles anyone's feathers a nightmare. In no sane universe should a house cost millions of dollars - multiple decades of a person's labour. Yet, thanks to easy access to credit, and bad property tax policy, here we are.

carapace 6y ago

> We couldn't build another bridge, tunnel, or anything. We just built a bridge. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco–Oakland_Bay_Bridge#Eastern_section_replacement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco–Oakland_Bay_Brid... And dug a tunnel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Subway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Subway

justinzollars 6y ago
The bridge was a replacement, and the tunnel is a decade late and still not complete. Both are way over budget. China build 16,000 miles of fully connected high speed rail in the same period of time. I'm going to stand by my statement that the future is not in San Francisco.
- jordonwii 6y ago
  > I'm going to stand by my statement that the future is not in San Francisco I don't see why this follows. :) SF is a beautiful and diverse city and a hub for (at least one) of the biggest and most innovative industries in the world. This is often true in spite of the Bay area's government, but imo that's the good news: government is fixable. Rather than giving up I try to channel my frustration into volunteering and donating to groups that are working on these problems: YIMBY Action (yimbyaction.org) has clubs throughout the Bay Area that advocate for easing restrictions on building housing and transit, operating small businesses, etc; Seamless (seamlessbayarea.org) also works on improving transit governance throughout the Bay Area.
- carapace 6y ago
  > The bridge was a replacement Yeah, a whole new bridge to replace the old one. Have you seen it? It's nice. They put lights on it and it makes patterns at night. > the tunnel is a decade late and still not complete. But it's there, right? (Technically not there.) You don't doubt that it will get finished? > Both are way over budget. But they exist, right? If you want to talk about how the Millennium Tower tilts, or the Transbay Terminal cracked, or the sidewalks in the new Mission Bay are abandoning the buildings and sinking into the bay, let's rap. But you can't claim we don't build. We build. > China build 16,000 miles of fully connected high speed rail in the same period of time. If you want to admire the CCP for the very real economic revolution they have accomplished in the last few decades we can do that too, as long as we also talk the fucked up things like how the Chinese people can't use the fully connected high speed rail to move to a different city without government permission. Look, China has done some crazy impressive things like building cities and railroad and so on, but they're also playing catch-up, lifting hundreds of millions of people from archaic poverty to modern semi-luxury. We did it last century. (Not on the same scale, of course, but we built our cities and railroads and interstate highways and such already, is my point.) > the future is not in San Francisco. Well it never was, except in Star Trek. These tech companies don't come to SF for the city itself: they ruined the city. They're here for vanity mostly, not solid economics. The East Bay over the hill makes way more sense. (FWIW if I were starting a startup I'd do it in Davis.) Believe me when I say that the old timers in SF (who survived the tech onslaught) can't wait to see the tech scene move on. We will not miss "the future" at all.

jordonwii 6y ago

Not only could we not build it today, we can barely modify it today: https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/heatherknight/article/Confusion-conspiracy-theories-humor-14963769.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/heatherknight/article/Co... > But despite not a single resident registering a complaint about the antenna work — a modern-day miracle! — getting the permit from the city's Planning Department took two years. Approval came just as special crews arrived to do the work. > “It was held up for no good reason,” Hyams said, echoing a common gripe about our city's slow Planning Department, which mirrors the slowness of just about every department.

justinzollars 6y ago
We should just close down the planning department or change its mission to mandate very very fast development.
- jordonwii 6y ago
  > change its mission to mandate very very fast development While no one's going quite this far yet (alas), the mayor's approach actually isn't too far from this, e.g. for housing: > The new measure would require an approval process of no longer than six months for projects that meet existing zoning rules...[1] or for SMBs: > the ballot measure would require that permit applications for storefront uses that are allowed by the current zoning be reviewed within 30 days, compared to what can sometimes be months of review [2] Unfortunately the first one is postponed indefinitely because COVID made signature collection impossible, but the second will be on the ballot in November. [1] https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/san-francisco/sf-mayor-announces-ballot-measure-to-build-more-affordable-homes/2227802/ https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/san-francisco/sf-mayor... [2] https://sfmayor.org/article/mayor-london-breed-introduces-ballot-measure-support-san-francisco-small-businesses https://sfmayor.org/article/mayor-london-breed-introduces-ba...