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Life definitely is easier when there is a large underclass of disenfranchised poor people willing to do anything. Why has no-one considered this before? (On a

Life definitely is easier when there is a large underclass of disenfranchised poor people willing to do anything. Why has no-one considered this before? (On a serious note, this is basically a meme at this point. Someone sees a thing, blames it on corporate greed. You may be a worker in a big-box store but you will make more money, you take less risk, and you get the opportunity to retire with some dignity rather than work yourself into a coffin. Poverty tourism is great fun but it is quite tragic when you see other people suffering and think there is nobility in that.)

bryanlarsen 6y ago
I'm just a tourist, but from what I can tell, Ecuador has done a fabulous job of righting its ship economically and politically over the last 20 years. There is still a "large underclass of disenfranchised poor" because of Venezualen refugees though.
- hogFeast 6y ago
  Their govt is very close to default right now. The only thing that has saved Ecuador was Correra not managing to bind his successor to his policies. Correra borrowed a ton of money, gave it out to win elections, and left the people with the bill. I am not sure how this can be called a success (it is true that lots of people think Ecuador is successful because they borrowed a ton of money and gave it out...this hasn't created a wealth, it has just created massive debt that can't be repaid).
oftenwrong 6y ago
That strikes me as an uncharitable reading of this article. The guys transporting appliances in a pickup truck are, in some sense, forced to do that to survive. However, the author's point concerns the opportunity they are capitalising on. In this environment, one can start an appliance transport business with a truck and some strong men. The environment of the USA has many more barriers to entry, and that influences the types of enterprises that exist there.
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  In the US, the truck and strong men exist, one just has to know where the local "day labour" hangout may be.
  - oftenwrong 6y ago
    Those sorts of operations are generally not compliant with regulations. This would seem to reinforce the parent's point. While it is great to have low barriers to entry, it is not so great to sacrifice worker protections, and to depend on people living in precarious financial situations.
- ff317 6y ago
  They're inextricably linked, though. It's always much easier to start a small business in a relatively-unregulated environment, but that's because nearly zero thought or protection is being given to the drivers' or loaders' living wages, healthcare, eventual retirement, actual health (as in long-term occupational stress on the body), or even ability to be compensated for severe workplace injuries. All of the things we privileged Americans complain about in cases like Amazon's treatment of their warehouse and shipping workers are orders of magnitude worse, in practice, for most of these opportunistic workers in Ecuador.
  - oftenwrong 6y ago
    That's a good point. I suppose in countries like the US there is already a middle ground in play: small businesses are often exempt from certain onerous regulations.
  - codeadict 6y ago
    I lived in Ecuador, all these people will have retirement and healthcare thru the IES(https://www.iess.gob.ec/ https://www.iess.gob.ec/), equivalent to the US Social Security. It's not a perfect system but neither is US retirement if you don't have 401k or some kind of private retirement plan, the healthcare could be slow sometimes and you spend 30 mins to an hour to see the doctor but it works.
amadeusw 6y ago
You might have misunderstood the author. The author showed us that you can have an efficient system without the vertically integrated middleman corporate structure. He described how it is a novelty and runs differently than what he's used to, but it is the natural course of business in many parts of the world. He did not participate in poverty tourism and Ecuadorians are not disenfranchised poor people just because they don't follow the lifestyle that you're used to.
- cameldrv 6y ago
  I think that you misunderstand HogFeast. The author drops in to town with American style money. The people who are serving him, for example, driving the furniture delivery pickup truck, are all almost certainly working for very little money. The convenience he experiences is possible because there are a bunch of underemployed drivers with pickup trucks all waiting for someone to buy furniture. Then they drive across town and come right back. The IKEA model would be to load up a truck at a distribution center, have a preplanned route, and a big truck, and knock out a whole bunch of deliveries at once. This is less convenient for the customer, because they don't get instant gratification, and they have to wait at home for the delivery in some 4 hour window. On the other hand, it's much more efficient for the delivery company, because they're probably delivering about 4x as much furniture per driver per day. That will lead to some combination of better wages for the driver, cheaper delivery, or more profit for the furniture company. You certainly could call up a moving company, have them come to IKEA with you, load up the furniture, and take it home, but it would cost a lot more than what he's paying in Ecuador. The reason is that the driver in Ecuador doesn't expect to make very much money by the standards of the author's western salary.
  - titanomachy 6y ago
    "That will lead to some combination of better wages for the driver, cheaper delivery, or more profit for the furniture company." Realistically: the driver will be paid close to minimum wage because he doesn't have any rare skills, and the customer will be charged as much as possible. The owners of the company will probably get decent return on their capital, though.

bryanlarsen 6y ago

I'm just a tourist, but from what I can tell, Ecuador has done a fabulous job of righting its ship economically and politically over the last 20 years. There is still a "large underclass of disenfranchised poor" because of Venezualen refugees though.

hogFeast 6y ago
Their govt is very close to default right now. The only thing that has saved Ecuador was Correra not managing to bind his successor to his policies. Correra borrowed a ton of money, gave it out to win elections, and left the people with the bill. I am not sure how this can be called a success (it is true that lots of people think Ecuador is successful because they borrowed a ton of money and gave it out...this hasn't created a wealth, it has just created massive debt that can't be repaid).

oftenwrong 6y ago

That strikes me as an uncharitable reading of this article. The guys transporting appliances in a pickup truck are, in some sense, forced to do that to survive. However, the author's point concerns the opportunity they are capitalising on. In this environment, one can start an appliance transport business with a truck and some strong men. The environment of the USA has many more barriers to entry, and that influences the types of enterprises that exist there.

082349872349872 6y ago
In the US, the truck and strong men exist, one just has to know where the local "day labour" hangout may be.
- oftenwrong 6y ago
  Those sorts of operations are generally not compliant with regulations. This would seem to reinforce the parent's point. While it is great to have low barriers to entry, it is not so great to sacrifice worker protections, and to depend on people living in precarious financial situations.
ff317 6y ago
They're inextricably linked, though. It's always much easier to start a small business in a relatively-unregulated environment, but that's because nearly zero thought or protection is being given to the drivers' or loaders' living wages, healthcare, eventual retirement, actual health (as in long-term occupational stress on the body), or even ability to be compensated for severe workplace injuries. All of the things we privileged Americans complain about in cases like Amazon's treatment of their warehouse and shipping workers are orders of magnitude worse, in practice, for most of these opportunistic workers in Ecuador.
- oftenwrong 6y ago
  That's a good point. I suppose in countries like the US there is already a middle ground in play: small businesses are often exempt from certain onerous regulations.
- codeadict 6y ago
  I lived in Ecuador, all these people will have retirement and healthcare thru the IES(https://www.iess.gob.ec/ https://www.iess.gob.ec/), equivalent to the US Social Security. It's not a perfect system but neither is US retirement if you don't have 401k or some kind of private retirement plan, the healthcare could be slow sometimes and you spend 30 mins to an hour to see the doctor but it works.

amadeusw 6y ago

You might have misunderstood the author. The author showed us that you can have an efficient system without the vertically integrated middleman corporate structure. He described how it is a novelty and runs differently than what he's used to, but it is the natural course of business in many parts of the world. He did not participate in poverty tourism and Ecuadorians are not disenfranchised poor people just because they don't follow the lifestyle that you're used to.

cameldrv 6y ago
I think that you misunderstand HogFeast. The author drops in to town with American style money. The people who are serving him, for example, driving the furniture delivery pickup truck, are all almost certainly working for very little money. The convenience he experiences is possible because there are a bunch of underemployed drivers with pickup trucks all waiting for someone to buy furniture. Then they drive across town and come right back. The IKEA model would be to load up a truck at a distribution center, have a preplanned route, and a big truck, and knock out a whole bunch of deliveries at once. This is less convenient for the customer, because they don't get instant gratification, and they have to wait at home for the delivery in some 4 hour window. On the other hand, it's much more efficient for the delivery company, because they're probably delivering about 4x as much furniture per driver per day. That will lead to some combination of better wages for the driver, cheaper delivery, or more profit for the furniture company. You certainly could call up a moving company, have them come to IKEA with you, load up the furniture, and take it home, but it would cost a lot more than what he's paying in Ecuador. The reason is that the driver in Ecuador doesn't expect to make very much money by the standards of the author's western salary.
- titanomachy 6y ago
  "That will lead to some combination of better wages for the driver, cheaper delivery, or more profit for the furniture company." Realistically: the driver will be paid close to minimum wage because he doesn't have any rare skills, and the customer will be charged as much as possible. The owners of the company will probably get decent return on their capital, though.