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I really don't see what the problem is here. Stallman himself is OK with using proprietary software if it runs on someone else's machine. For example, here http

I really don't see what the problem is here. Stallman himself is OK with using proprietary software if it runs on someone else's machine. For example, here https://stallman.org/stallman-computing.html https://stallman.org/stallman-computing.html, he states he uses DuckDuckGo and ixquick, which are not clearly free software. (Though, they might be free software; their server code isn't distributed to the user, so even under the GPL they would not have to also distribute the source). So what if GitHub is proprietary? So long as you don't run their JavaScript on your machine, your computing can still be fully free. And, if the problem is that Microsoft will prevent some project from being developed there, they can take their local Git (GPLv2 licensed) repositories and push them somewhere else. This all seems like a win from the FSF's perspective. Their projects are easier to discover and to contribute to, the developer's computing can remain fully free and the FSF does not need to pay for hosting. Flex being BSD licensed is a slight problem for copyleft, though.

garaetjjte 6y ago
>Stallman himself is OK with using proprietary software if it runs on someone else's machine. RMS is against "Service as a Software Substitute" https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-serve.html.en https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-s... One could argue that GitHub is SaaSS, because eg. issue system encourages lock-in to specific service, instead of communicating via free email client.
- ancarda 6y ago
  I wonder if using a public instance of free software is a problem? i.e. https://sr.ht https://sr.ht is an instance of Sourcehut. I figure if it turns nasty, or is going to disappear, I can take my data to a self-hosted instance.
ancarda 6y ago
>So long as you don't run their JavaScript on your machine Do you have much of a choice? I think a lot of GitHub features do not work properly without JavaScript. For instance, just trying it now: - Can't mark notifications as done - Can't edit the title or description of an issue or PR - Can't dismiss banners or most modals/popups - Can't commit files directly on the web interface - Can't edit an issue or PR metadata (i.e. labels) - Can't edit most, maybe almost all, repo settings At-least it's not a blank page. If I see websites like that these days, I just close the tab. Thankfully, you can pretty much use GitHub in "read-only" mode without JavaScript, but working on it is probably quite hard without running their non-free code. It would probably be better if they'd use Sourcehut or maybe GitLab.
- GoblinSlayer 6y ago
  - Can't mark notifications as done - Can't dismiss banners or most modals/popups These worked for me without javascript. Didn't try after redesign yet. IME gitlab doesn't work without javascript (the developer swears he can't be arsed to support noscript).
  - ancarda 6y ago
    GitLab is free software though, so you won't be running non-free JavaScript. It having poor noscript support is a shame though.
    - ThrowawayR2 6y ago
      GitLab is only partially free; it's open core only. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17229940 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17229940
- jwilk 6y ago
  > - Can't mark notifications as done What kind of notifications? > - Can't edit the title or description of an issue or PR You can if you disable CSS. (Admittedly that's not very convenient…) > - Can't dismiss banners or most modals/popups Any examples? This has (almost?) always worked for me.
  - ancarda 6y ago
    Hmm, I went to get you an example and I found they seem to dismiss if you click elsewhere on the page. I think I was clicking on the close button (the "x" in the title bar) - which won't work without JavaScript.
im3w1l-alt 6y ago
If any of these projects should pose a risk to Microsoft it will be able to pull the rug from under them. Code hosting gone, sponsor income gone, forums gone, bug tracking gone. At the same time. They will have to take care to always respect Microsoft's business interests and conduct codes. It is a much more severe threat to freedom than running all the proprietary code in the world. I wouldn't be too surprised if one day they say Stallman has to go.
- zelon88 6y ago
  What could Stallman possibly do to Microsoft that he hasn't been doing for his entire life? [1] [2] He lives and breathes free software and arguably coined the term. If Microsoft deems Stallman a threat after 30 years of being heckled by him I would be very surprised. Additionally the developer community within Microsoft and outside Microsoft would become militant. A decision like erasing all GNU repos would punish thousands of people other than Stallman. Additionally, Github's value is derived in part from how many people use it. Lots of people use it because it's trustworthy. When Microsoft took over Github there was a lot of skeptecism about MS$ maintaining impartiality. If they start throwing up red flags by taking down prominent open source repos and messing with Richard Stallman (the literal figurehead of open-source) they would be betraying open-source in general and the reprecussions would be swift. That was everyones biggest fear, and if Microsoft proved that fear true the exodus to other SCM platforms would be instant. Within a week there wouldn't be any worthwhile projects left on Github. [1] https://www.gnu.org/proprietary/malware-microsoft.en.html https://www.gnu.org/proprietary/malware-microsoft.en.html [2] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/microsoft.en.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/microsoft.en.html [3] https://stallman.org/microsoft.html https://stallman.org/microsoft.html

garaetjjte 6y ago

>Stallman himself is OK with using proprietary software if it runs on someone else's machine. RMS is against "Service as a Software Substitute" https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-serve.html.en https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-s... One could argue that GitHub is SaaSS, because eg. issue system encourages lock-in to specific service, instead of communicating via free email client.

ancarda 6y ago
I wonder if using a public instance of free software is a problem? i.e. https://sr.ht https://sr.ht is an instance of Sourcehut. I figure if it turns nasty, or is going to disappear, I can take my data to a self-hosted instance.

ancarda 6y ago

>So long as you don't run their JavaScript on your machine Do you have much of a choice? I think a lot of GitHub features do not work properly without JavaScript. For instance, just trying it now: - Can't mark notifications as done - Can't edit the title or description of an issue or PR - Can't dismiss banners or most modals/popups - Can't commit files directly on the web interface - Can't edit an issue or PR metadata (i.e. labels) - Can't edit most, maybe almost all, repo settings At-least it's not a blank page. If I see websites like that these days, I just close the tab. Thankfully, you can pretty much use GitHub in "read-only" mode without JavaScript, but working on it is probably quite hard without running their non-free code. It would probably be better if they'd use Sourcehut or maybe GitLab.

GoblinSlayer 6y ago
- Can't mark notifications as done - Can't dismiss banners or most modals/popups These worked for me without javascript. Didn't try after redesign yet. IME gitlab doesn't work without javascript (the developer swears he can't be arsed to support noscript).
- ancarda 6y ago
  GitLab is free software though, so you won't be running non-free JavaScript. It having poor noscript support is a shame though.
  - ThrowawayR2 6y ago
    GitLab is only partially free; it's open core only. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17229940 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17229940
jwilk 6y ago
> - Can't mark notifications as done What kind of notifications? > - Can't edit the title or description of an issue or PR You can if you disable CSS. (Admittedly that's not very convenient…) > - Can't dismiss banners or most modals/popups Any examples? This has (almost?) always worked for me.
- ancarda 6y ago
  Hmm, I went to get you an example and I found they seem to dismiss if you click elsewhere on the page. I think I was clicking on the close button (the "x" in the title bar) - which won't work without JavaScript.

im3w1l-alt 6y ago

If any of these projects should pose a risk to Microsoft it will be able to pull the rug from under them. Code hosting gone, sponsor income gone, forums gone, bug tracking gone. At the same time. They will have to take care to always respect Microsoft's business interests and conduct codes. It is a much more severe threat to freedom than running all the proprietary code in the world. I wouldn't be too surprised if one day they say Stallman has to go.

zelon88 6y ago
What could Stallman possibly do to Microsoft that he hasn't been doing for his entire life? [1] [2] He lives and breathes free software and arguably coined the term. If Microsoft deems Stallman a threat after 30 years of being heckled by him I would be very surprised. Additionally the developer community within Microsoft and outside Microsoft would become militant. A decision like erasing all GNU repos would punish thousands of people other than Stallman. Additionally, Github's value is derived in part from how many people use it. Lots of people use it because it's trustworthy. When Microsoft took over Github there was a lot of skeptecism about MS$ maintaining impartiality. If they start throwing up red flags by taking down prominent open source repos and messing with Richard Stallman (the literal figurehead of open-source) they would be betraying open-source in general and the reprecussions would be swift. That was everyones biggest fear, and if Microsoft proved that fear true the exodus to other SCM platforms would be instant. Within a week there wouldn't be any worthwhile projects left on Github. [1] https://www.gnu.org/proprietary/malware-microsoft.en.html https://www.gnu.org/proprietary/malware-microsoft.en.html [2] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/microsoft.en.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/microsoft.en.html [3] https://stallman.org/microsoft.html https://stallman.org/microsoft.html