4 ms·

If someone is trying to break into my business and loot it they should expect to get shot. Why can we not use violent force against violent force?

pjc50 6y ago
Is that or is that not a death threat, though? Threatening to use lethal force [with conditions] is still threatening lethal force. Would it be acceptable (if ludicrous) to keep a guillotine on your own property with a "for rioters" sign on? How about "for Jeff Bezos"? Conversely is it OK to acquire a self-defence weapon and stand outsize Bezos' house brandishing it?
- AlexTWithBeard 6y ago
  The key word in your statement above: to keep a guillotine on your own property. Trespassers will be shot. My home - my castle. Brandishing a weapon outside someone else's house does not look like a self-defense.
ardy42 6y ago
> If someone is trying to break into my business and loot it they should expect to get shot. Why can we not use violent force against violent force? Are they literally threatening to kill you or someone else? If not, then no. You can't use lethal force just to defend your business property.
- derision 6y ago
  From the videos I've seen there were multiple instances where businesses owners attempted to defend their property and were beaten violently by mobs of people. Here's one such example https://www.newsbreak.com/texas/dallas/news/0PCbABEq/video-dallas-store-owner-severely-attacked-by-crowd-of-looters https://www.newsbreak.com/texas/dallas/news/0PCbABEq/video-d...
  - ardy42 6y ago
    >>> If someone is trying to break into my business and loot it they should expect to get shot. Why can we not use violent force against violent force? >> Are they literally threatening to kill you or someone else? If not, then no. You can't use lethal force just to defend your business property. > From the videos I've seen there were multiple instances where businesses owners attempted to defend their property and were beaten violently by mobs of people. Here's one such example... That video starts in the middle of a confrontation, and shows a man brandishing what looks like a machete or a sword at some people who are throwing rocks at him. It appears the sword-wielder rushed somebody, and was then beaten and subdued by the crowd. Afterwards, there's many comments to the effect of "he could have killed somebody!" It's not at all clear which group initiated the confrontation or which group (if either) is acting in self defense. But the point still stands: if you kill or injure people to project you business property, you're in the wrong. If you shoot someone for theft, shoplifting, vandalism, etc. you can and should be prosecuted for an unjustifiable homicide or attempted homicide. Two wrongs still don't make a right, especially if the "corrective" wrong is much, much worse. That's even the legal position: https://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2018/09/are-looters-will-be-shot-signs-legal.html https://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2018/09/are-looters-will-b... > Even in states with "stand your ground" laws, there are limits on when deadly force is allowed. Some states have a duty to retreat, which requires people to retreat from the threat as much as possible before responding with force. But nearly all states limit the use of deadly force under stand your ground laws to defending yourself in the face of great bodily harm or death, not your storefront. So, shooting someone who may kill or seriously injure you might be defensible, but shooting a person who steals from your store may not be. https://www.quora.com/Is-is-legal-to-shoot-someone-who-is-looting-your-business-in-Baltimore-Maryland https://www.quora.com/Is-is-legal-to-shoot-someone-who-is-lo... > In general, it is not legal to defend your business using deadly force, regardless of whether or not there is a state of emergency in effect, and whether or not you see a visible police presence. You can only defend your person using deadly force, not your possessions. You cannot defend your business using deadly force. https://www.kare11.com/article/news/local/george-floyd/minn-law-wont-excuse-killing-to-protect-property/89-acc4070f-98dc-49ba-b8d5-625b4d99a6ec https://www.kare11.com/article/news/local/george-floyd/minn-... > Minnesota law won't excuse killing to protect property > Experts say deadly force can't be used to fend off looters, unless they're also threatening to harm store employees. https://www.chicoer.com/2008/07/02/police-address-legal-points-in-shooting-looters/ https://www.chicoer.com/2008/07/02/police-address-legal-poin... > [Police Lt. Al] Billington told the [Enterprise-Record that former Paradise mayor Ray] Dalton had a right to post the sign, but said it would be illegal for him to shoot anyone, unless he was defending his life, or the life of another.

pjc50 6y ago

Is that or is that not a death threat, though? Threatening to use lethal force [with conditions] is still threatening lethal force. Would it be acceptable (if ludicrous) to keep a guillotine on your own property with a "for rioters" sign on? How about "for Jeff Bezos"? Conversely is it OK to acquire a self-defence weapon and stand outsize Bezos' house brandishing it?

AlexTWithBeard 6y ago
The key word in your statement above: to keep a guillotine on your own property. Trespassers will be shot. My home - my castle. Brandishing a weapon outside someone else's house does not look like a self-defense.

ardy42 6y ago

> If someone is trying to break into my business and loot it they should expect to get shot. Why can we not use violent force against violent force? Are they literally threatening to kill you or someone else? If not, then no. You can't use lethal force just to defend your business property.

derision 6y ago
From the videos I've seen there were multiple instances where businesses owners attempted to defend their property and were beaten violently by mobs of people. Here's one such example https://www.newsbreak.com/texas/dallas/news/0PCbABEq/video-dallas-store-owner-severely-attacked-by-crowd-of-looters https://www.newsbreak.com/texas/dallas/news/0PCbABEq/video-d...
- ardy42 6y ago
  >>> If someone is trying to break into my business and loot it they should expect to get shot. Why can we not use violent force against violent force? >> Are they literally threatening to kill you or someone else? If not, then no. You can't use lethal force just to defend your business property. > From the videos I've seen there were multiple instances where businesses owners attempted to defend their property and were beaten violently by mobs of people. Here's one such example... That video starts in the middle of a confrontation, and shows a man brandishing what looks like a machete or a sword at some people who are throwing rocks at him. It appears the sword-wielder rushed somebody, and was then beaten and subdued by the crowd. Afterwards, there's many comments to the effect of "he could have killed somebody!" It's not at all clear which group initiated the confrontation or which group (if either) is acting in self defense. But the point still stands: if you kill or injure people to project you business property, you're in the wrong. If you shoot someone for theft, shoplifting, vandalism, etc. you can and should be prosecuted for an unjustifiable homicide or attempted homicide. Two wrongs still don't make a right, especially if the "corrective" wrong is much, much worse. That's even the legal position: https://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2018/09/are-looters-will-be-shot-signs-legal.html https://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2018/09/are-looters-will-b... > Even in states with "stand your ground" laws, there are limits on when deadly force is allowed. Some states have a duty to retreat, which requires people to retreat from the threat as much as possible before responding with force. But nearly all states limit the use of deadly force under stand your ground laws to defending yourself in the face of great bodily harm or death, not your storefront. So, shooting someone who may kill or seriously injure you might be defensible, but shooting a person who steals from your store may not be. https://www.quora.com/Is-is-legal-to-shoot-someone-who-is-looting-your-business-in-Baltimore-Maryland https://www.quora.com/Is-is-legal-to-shoot-someone-who-is-lo... > In general, it is not legal to defend your business using deadly force, regardless of whether or not there is a state of emergency in effect, and whether or not you see a visible police presence. You can only defend your person using deadly force, not your possessions. You cannot defend your business using deadly force. https://www.kare11.com/article/news/local/george-floyd/minn-law-wont-excuse-killing-to-protect-property/89-acc4070f-98dc-49ba-b8d5-625b4d99a6ec https://www.kare11.com/article/news/local/george-floyd/minn-... > Minnesota law won't excuse killing to protect property > Experts say deadly force can't be used to fend off looters, unless they're also threatening to harm store employees. https://www.chicoer.com/2008/07/02/police-address-legal-points-in-shooting-looters/ https://www.chicoer.com/2008/07/02/police-address-legal-poin... > [Police Lt. Al] Billington told the [Enterprise-Record that former Paradise mayor Ray] Dalton had a right to post the sign, but said it would be illegal for him to shoot anyone, unless he was defending his life, or the life of another.