3 ms·

> extremely rare Is it? From all lab confirmed cases in USA until end of May, almost every 200th in age group 20-29 was admitted to ICU. Almost every 100th in

by acqq 6y ago

> extremely rare Is it? From all lab confirmed cases in USA until end of May, almost every 200th in age group 20-29 was admitted to ICU. Almost every 100th in age group 30-39. (1) Admitted to ICU means "probably considered intubation (or received it immediately)" Which is very, very unpleasant thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tracheal_intubation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tracheal_intubation Is that "extremely rare" to you? (In the USA there are 7.2% inhabitants aged 20-29, 6.7% aged 30-39. Even if the number of "unconfirmed but infected" is 10 times higher, that still gives around 24000 people in the USA aged 20-39 needing ICU, or 8 times more than died on 9/11. And those are just provably "non-elderly". All those 40 and older would need even much more ICU beds. I hope it's obvious that if there are not enough ICU beds much more people would die.) 1) It can be calculated from https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6924e2.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6924e2.htm For 20-29 182469 confirmed, 864 ICU, for 30-39 214849 confirmed, 1879 ICU. (Additionally, males were admitted to ICU almost twice as much as females)

gridlockd 6y ago
The comment said "(extremely rare) instances of stroke", not ICU admissions.
- acqq 6y ago
  This is a thread about dexamethasone, not "strokes", and we also know that from 8 patients that are intubated the treatment with dexamethasone saves one, compared to those intubated never treated with dexamethasone. We also know that dexamethasone is at best not helping if given outside of ICU. Once again, dexamethasone has to be given to 8 intubated people to save one, and that's considered the drug with the most visible effect in fighting Covid-19 up to now -- i.e. the most successful drug up to now! You can imagine how little effect other drugs produced in the verified trials. In that context, talking about ICU and intubated is exactly on topic, hand-waving "strokes" isn't. Moreover, the comment actually said "strokes / organ damage" not "strokes." Nevertheless, the main effect of dexamethasone is on the intubated patients.
  - gridlockd 6y ago
    Regardless of what the thread is or isn't about, the comment you quoted made specific claims: - Strokes (and organ damage) are the result of cytokine storms - Strokes (and organ damage) in COVID-19 are "extremely rare" That may be true or untrue, but you are not responding to those claims, you are responding to something else. I'm not even sure what that is, because nobody actually wrote it down.
    - acqq 6y ago
      The comment tried by introducing "strokes" to distract from the topic: dexamethasone which helps intubated patients. Insisting on that non-topic here just doesn't improve the discussion. Discussing "strokes" by "non-elderly" as the special case of all intubated patients as somehow relevant for dexamethasone isn't supported by any research, as far as I know. And I claim that the number of patients that could be saved using dexamethasone even in the age groups 20-39, if they get infected, is nothing "extremely rare" among "non-elderly": only before end of May, surely more than 100 US patients aged 20-39 could have been saved. If "non-elderly" means "still working" the number is even much higher.
      - gridlockd 6y ago
        > The comment tried by introducing "strokes" to distract from the topic: dexamethasone which helps intubated patients. The comment is about what causes strokes: Is it the virus itself, or the cytokine storm? If it is the virus itself, that would be rather unique. The comment argues that it is the cytokine storm. This is relevant because there is a hypothesis that COVID-19 is uniquely dangerous because the virus itself directly attacks organs and causes strokes. Furthermore, if Dexamethasone helps with the cytokine storms and the cytokine storms cause strokes/organ damage, it only follows that it also helps with the strokes/organ damage. Therefore, nothing in the comment suggests that Dexamethasone wouldn't help patients, regardless of age. To the contrary. You appear to be fighting windmills.
        acqq 6y ago

by acqq 6y ago

gridlockd 6y ago

The comment said "(extremely rare) instances of stroke", not ICU admissions.

acqq 6y ago
This is a thread about dexamethasone, not "strokes", and we also know that from 8 patients that are intubated the treatment with dexamethasone saves one, compared to those intubated never treated with dexamethasone. We also know that dexamethasone is at best not helping if given outside of ICU. Once again, dexamethasone has to be given to 8 intubated people to save one, and that's considered the drug with the most visible effect in fighting Covid-19 up to now -- i.e. the most successful drug up to now! You can imagine how little effect other drugs produced in the verified trials. In that context, talking about ICU and intubated is exactly on topic, hand-waving "strokes" isn't. Moreover, the comment actually said "strokes / organ damage" not "strokes." Nevertheless, the main effect of dexamethasone is on the intubated patients.
- gridlockd 6y ago
  Regardless of what the thread is or isn't about, the comment you quoted made specific claims: - Strokes (and organ damage) are the result of cytokine storms - Strokes (and organ damage) in COVID-19 are "extremely rare" That may be true or untrue, but you are not responding to those claims, you are responding to something else. I'm not even sure what that is, because nobody actually wrote it down.
  - acqq 6y ago
    The comment tried by introducing "strokes" to distract from the topic: dexamethasone which helps intubated patients. Insisting on that non-topic here just doesn't improve the discussion. Discussing "strokes" by "non-elderly" as the special case of all intubated patients as somehow relevant for dexamethasone isn't supported by any research, as far as I know. And I claim that the number of patients that could be saved using dexamethasone even in the age groups 20-39, if they get infected, is nothing "extremely rare" among "non-elderly": only before end of May, surely more than 100 US patients aged 20-39 could have been saved. If "non-elderly" means "still working" the number is even much higher.
    - gridlockd 6y ago
      > The comment tried by introducing "strokes" to distract from the topic: dexamethasone which helps intubated patients. The comment is about what causes strokes: Is it the virus itself, or the cytokine storm? If it is the virus itself, that would be rather unique. The comment argues that it is the cytokine storm. This is relevant because there is a hypothesis that COVID-19 is uniquely dangerous because the virus itself directly attacks organs and causes strokes. Furthermore, if Dexamethasone helps with the cytokine storms and the cytokine storms cause strokes/organ damage, it only follows that it also helps with the strokes/organ damage. Therefore, nothing in the comment suggests that Dexamethasone wouldn't help patients, regardless of age. To the contrary. You appear to be fighting windmills.
      - acqq 6y ago