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Why is spontaneous order desirable? Pandemics are spontaneously ordered too. IIRC, when pressed on this, Hayek resorted to a kind of crude biopolitcs -- market

Why is spontaneous order desirable? Pandemics are spontaneously ordered too. IIRC, when pressed on this, Hayek resorted to a kind of crude biopolitcs -- market societies had more population growth so that made them better.

jaekash 6y ago
> Why is spontaneous order desirable? Because it is not order obtained through force? What other means are there to obtain order?
- viburnum 6y ago
  Hayek himself recognized that people are forced to submit to the market. He just approved of that kind of submission. I got bad news for you guys, Hayek was just making excuses for rich people running the world.
  - jaekash 6y ago
    > Hayek himself recognized that people are forced to submit to the market. How are you forced to submit to the market? I really don't get it. If you don't want to participate, don't.
nickik 6y ago
Because many thing, perticularly complex system can only be 'created' by spontaneous order.
tomhoward 6y ago
> Why is spontaneous order desirable? Pandemics are spontaneously ordered too. I don't think it's a question of what is "desirable", but rather a question of what is inevitable. Sure, bacterial/viral/parasite outbreaks are part of natural systems, and have their own spontaneous order, but the way their host systems react and respond is also a manifestation of spontaneous order. In modern society this is true whether we're talking about planned/centralised economies or more laissez faire ones. I.e., even in a relatively centralised society like China, grassroots decisions and actions still play a highly significant role in overall activity, including in the pandemic. It's a subject of ongoing study and debate as to the effectiveness and efficiency of centralised attempts to control organic processes.
- littlestymaar 6y ago
  > I don't think it's a question of what is "desirable", but rather a question of what is inevitable. inevitable is a smart way of pushing something you want to happen though. The famous quote from Margaret Thatcher “there is no alternative” is tge best example of that. Also, as twentieth century shown us, their is nothing really impossible for a sufficiently motivated government, sometimes for the better but often the worse (from “landing on the moon in a decade” to “eradicate the Jews”).
  - tomhoward 6y ago
    > inevitable is a smart way of pushing something you want to happen though Sure but that's not what I'm talking about. As I said in the comment, whether it's Thatcheresque “market fundamentalism” or some form of extreme central planning, there will still be a spontaneous order at the grassroots level. Individuals and groups will always respond organically to their conditions. The only question is how much governments can influence it, and how beneficial are their attempts. But that doesn't change the inevitability of some form of spontaneous order. > [there] is nothing really impossible for a sufficiently motivated government Programs like the "war on drugs", the "war on cancer", the "war on obesity" and the "war on terror" would suggest otherwise, and demonstrate that vast interventions can be not only hugely wasteful but can have precisely the opposite of the desired effect.
    - littlestymaar 6y ago
      > Programs like the "war on drugs", the "war on cancer", the "war on obesity" and the "war on terror" would suggest otherwise Because declaring “war on something” isn't political action in itself, it's electoral communication. How many times did the US government perquisionned Ivy league colleges or trading desks to seek cocaine? Why not ? And why are the US still cooperating with Saudis and other gulf states if they really cared about terrorism? And for the health issue wars you mensionned, the government has zero political will to shut down the huge agro-industrial complex which has a big responsibility in both. Hitler once said to somebody complaining about the inflation risk caused by his policies: “I'm gonna send the SA in the grossery shops, and will'll see if there is inflation”.

jaekash 6y ago

> Why is spontaneous order desirable? Because it is not order obtained through force? What other means are there to obtain order?

viburnum 6y ago
Hayek himself recognized that people are forced to submit to the market. He just approved of that kind of submission. I got bad news for you guys, Hayek was just making excuses for rich people running the world.
- jaekash 6y ago
  > Hayek himself recognized that people are forced to submit to the market. How are you forced to submit to the market? I really don't get it. If you don't want to participate, don't.

nickik 6y ago

Because many thing, perticularly complex system can only be 'created' by spontaneous order.

tomhoward 6y ago

> Why is spontaneous order desirable? Pandemics are spontaneously ordered too. I don't think it's a question of what is "desirable", but rather a question of what is inevitable. Sure, bacterial/viral/parasite outbreaks are part of natural systems, and have their own spontaneous order, but the way their host systems react and respond is also a manifestation of spontaneous order. In modern society this is true whether we're talking about planned/centralised economies or more laissez faire ones. I.e., even in a relatively centralised society like China, grassroots decisions and actions still play a highly significant role in overall activity, including in the pandemic. It's a subject of ongoing study and debate as to the effectiveness and efficiency of centralised attempts to control organic processes.

littlestymaar 6y ago
> I don't think it's a question of what is "desirable", but rather a question of what is inevitable. inevitable is a smart way of pushing something you want to happen though. The famous quote from Margaret Thatcher “there is no alternative” is tge best example of that. Also, as twentieth century shown us, their is nothing really impossible for a sufficiently motivated government, sometimes for the better but often the worse (from “landing on the moon in a decade” to “eradicate the Jews”).
- tomhoward 6y ago
  > inevitable is a smart way of pushing something you want to happen though Sure but that's not what I'm talking about. As I said in the comment, whether it's Thatcheresque “market fundamentalism” or some form of extreme central planning, there will still be a spontaneous order at the grassroots level. Individuals and groups will always respond organically to their conditions. The only question is how much governments can influence it, and how beneficial are their attempts. But that doesn't change the inevitability of some form of spontaneous order. > [there] is nothing really impossible for a sufficiently motivated government Programs like the "war on drugs", the "war on cancer", the "war on obesity" and the "war on terror" would suggest otherwise, and demonstrate that vast interventions can be not only hugely wasteful but can have precisely the opposite of the desired effect.
  - littlestymaar 6y ago
    > Programs like the "war on drugs", the "war on cancer", the "war on obesity" and the "war on terror" would suggest otherwise Because declaring “war on something” isn't political action in itself, it's electoral communication. How many times did the US government perquisionned Ivy league colleges or trading desks to seek cocaine? Why not ? And why are the US still cooperating with Saudis and other gulf states if they really cared about terrorism? And for the health issue wars you mensionned, the government has zero political will to shut down the huge agro-industrial complex which has a big responsibility in both. Hitler once said to somebody complaining about the inflation risk caused by his policies: “I'm gonna send the SA in the grossery shops, and will'll see if there is inflation”.