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While I agree with the sentiment, things have certainly opened up lately quite a bit with the mainstream-ization of the crypto currencies. One could conceivably

by xfour 6y ago

While I agree with the sentiment, things have certainly opened up lately quite a bit with the mainstream-ization of the crypto currencies. One could conceivably avoid Visa / MC in a way that just wouldn't have been possible before. Visa / MC remind me a bit of Ticketmaster in that they've got parties on both sides defending them because of kickbacks. You charge the merchant the "interchange fee" plus some amount and that fee goes back to the "card issuing" bank, so they like the system. The merchant passes on the cost (generally) to the consumer, so they don't really notice, and the ease of moving the money in 99% of cases means everyone is happy.

lima 6y ago
> mainstream-ization of the crypto currencies And modern Tendermint[1]/Cosmos SDK-based chains or Solana are basically distributed databases, using consensus models similar to Raft, except with byzantine fault tolerance and Proof of Stake for leader selection. No mining, no forks, finality within seconds, large throughput. Pretty boring, actually, with little hype surrounding it - it just works, like a regular database, except there's no single entity controlling it. One of the top five payment gateways in Korea - CHAI - uses the decentralized Terra[2] blockchain as their backend. [1]: https://tendermint.com/docs/tendermint.pdf https://tendermint.com/docs/tendermint.pdf [2]: https://terra.money https://terra.money
- swiley 6y ago
  Does raft work when people are trying to attack it? My understanding of it in its normal application is fuzzy enough.
  - lima 6y ago
    Raft is not safe against byzantine nodes, but these new consensus algorithms like Tendermint are.
sharemywin 6y ago
Pretty much the digital economy. As long as the consumer only get screwed a little per transaction, and consumers don't see the charge directly.
- briandear 6y ago
  The consumer isn’t getting screwed. There is purchase protection, fraud protection as well as extreme convenience. If we are worried about consumer prices, let’s talk about taxes and government malfeasance with the spending of those taxes. Some countries have a 20% VAT. Surely they could survive on 18%? Or even 10%? Less than a percent (in Europe) for interchange or less than 3% (in the US) is minor compared to the 9-20% one directly pays in sales taxes.
ryanwatkins 6y ago
Merchants certainly "notice" and take any opportunity to use an alternative to the card networks. They only accept it because they must to avoid losing a purchase. They would rather customers pay in almost any other form due to interchange costs. When talking to big merchants about any new payment product, the first question you will hear is often "so, how does this lower my interchange cost?"
- bluGill 6y ago
  That might be true, but it isn't as obviously true as you would think. Credit cards payments are not subject to being stolen or lost. Once you have the approval the money will reach your account. Of course there are other frauds you are vulnerable to. Which is why it isn't clear what is really best
  - ryanwatkins 6y ago
    There are plenty of other payment methods than cash that have guards against being lost/stolen or the other problems with handling cash, but also dont have the high cost of interchange that funds credit card rewards. Merchants take credit cards to avoid losing a purchase. Cards have such a high volume that consumers expect it and some small portion will skip a purchase if its not an option. But merchants would much prefer you pay with a store card, debit card or one of many other payment methods that dont have the same (2-3%) cost that credit cards do.
PeterisP 6y ago
I'm not seeing a "mainstream-ization of the crypto currencies". A few years ago, quite a few local businesses were experimenting with accepting cryptocurrency payments, and I could buy all kinds of stuff and services using bitcoin. I could order a pizza with bitcoin, I could buy electronics at a major retailer, I could buy plane tickets, I could pay for lunch in a local cafe. That's not the case any more, by now all these local companies have stopped accepting bitcoin, because after the first hype, the volume simply was not there to make it worth their while. Some people (often the same people!) bought some stuff initially to try it out, but that was it, there was no sustainable mainstream business. It's still usable for some online services targeting the tech crowd, especially where anonymity might be a feature, but for everyday use of paying for physical goods and in-person services there has been the opposite of "mainstream-ization" in my experience; by now the mainstream businesses have tried crypto and found it not useful. There's enough well developed infrastructure and service providers so that mainstream businesses could easily accept cryptocurrencies if they wanted, but they don't, because there's no significant customer demand outside specific niche markets.
- rtpg 6y ago
  Crpyto isn't mainstreaming but you are having a mainstream-ization of non-CC digital payments. Venmo is the thing in the US, but China has Alipay/Wepay, SE asia has various digital payment apps, Japan has had a huge "cashless" push in the past 12 months.... If I were running a retail shop in the US I definitely would accept payment by Venmo if I could.
  - briandear 6y ago
    Apple Pay is the thing. And it makes peer to peer money moving simple while not violating privacy like Venmo. You can use Apple Cash or a payment card. It’s all pretty easy — and private. Venmo is a privacy nightmare. You can use Apple Pay without even having a debit or credit card.
    - mc10 6y ago
      Apple Pay doesn't solve anything on the merchant's side. There's just nothing in the US with the simplicity and affordability as the various payment apps in Asian countries. For instance, in China WeChat Pay only charges 0.1% above 10,000 RMB (from what various articles say). Square is not even in the same category, charging 2.6% + 10¢. And you don't need to buy any equipment to use WeChat Pay; you just need to pull up a QR code on your phone.

by xfour 6y ago

lima 6y ago

> mainstream-ization of the crypto currencies And modern Tendermint[1]/Cosmos SDK-based chains or Solana are basically distributed databases, using consensus models similar to Raft, except with byzantine fault tolerance and Proof of Stake for leader selection. No mining, no forks, finality within seconds, large throughput. Pretty boring, actually, with little hype surrounding it - it just works, like a regular database, except there's no single entity controlling it. One of the top five payment gateways in Korea - CHAI - uses the decentralized Terra[2] blockchain as their backend. [1]: https://tendermint.com/docs/tendermint.pdf https://tendermint.com/docs/tendermint.pdf [2]: https://terra.money https://terra.money

swiley 6y ago
Does raft work when people are trying to attack it? My understanding of it in its normal application is fuzzy enough.
- lima 6y ago
  Raft is not safe against byzantine nodes, but these new consensus algorithms like Tendermint are.

sharemywin 6y ago

Pretty much the digital economy. As long as the consumer only get screwed a little per transaction, and consumers don't see the charge directly.

briandear 6y ago
The consumer isn’t getting screwed. There is purchase protection, fraud protection as well as extreme convenience. If we are worried about consumer prices, let’s talk about taxes and government malfeasance with the spending of those taxes. Some countries have a 20% VAT. Surely they could survive on 18%? Or even 10%? Less than a percent (in Europe) for interchange or less than 3% (in the US) is minor compared to the 9-20% one directly pays in sales taxes.

ryanwatkins 6y ago

Merchants certainly "notice" and take any opportunity to use an alternative to the card networks. They only accept it because they must to avoid losing a purchase. They would rather customers pay in almost any other form due to interchange costs. When talking to big merchants about any new payment product, the first question you will hear is often "so, how does this lower my interchange cost?"

bluGill 6y ago
That might be true, but it isn't as obviously true as you would think. Credit cards payments are not subject to being stolen or lost. Once you have the approval the money will reach your account. Of course there are other frauds you are vulnerable to. Which is why it isn't clear what is really best
- ryanwatkins 6y ago
  There are plenty of other payment methods than cash that have guards against being lost/stolen or the other problems with handling cash, but also dont have the high cost of interchange that funds credit card rewards. Merchants take credit cards to avoid losing a purchase. Cards have such a high volume that consumers expect it and some small portion will skip a purchase if its not an option. But merchants would much prefer you pay with a store card, debit card or one of many other payment methods that dont have the same (2-3%) cost that credit cards do.

PeterisP 6y ago

I'm not seeing a "mainstream-ization of the crypto currencies". A few years ago, quite a few local businesses were experimenting with accepting cryptocurrency payments, and I could buy all kinds of stuff and services using bitcoin. I could order a pizza with bitcoin, I could buy electronics at a major retailer, I could buy plane tickets, I could pay for lunch in a local cafe. That's not the case any more, by now all these local companies have stopped accepting bitcoin, because after the first hype, the volume simply was not there to make it worth their while. Some people (often the same people!) bought some stuff initially to try it out, but that was it, there was no sustainable mainstream business. It's still usable for some online services targeting the tech crowd, especially where anonymity might be a feature, but for everyday use of paying for physical goods and in-person services there has been the opposite of "mainstream-ization" in my experience; by now the mainstream businesses have tried crypto and found it not useful. There's enough well developed infrastructure and service providers so that mainstream businesses could easily accept cryptocurrencies if they wanted, but they don't, because there's no significant customer demand outside specific niche markets.

rtpg 6y ago
Crpyto isn't mainstreaming but you are having a mainstream-ization of non-CC digital payments. Venmo is the thing in the US, but China has Alipay/Wepay, SE asia has various digital payment apps, Japan has had a huge "cashless" push in the past 12 months.... If I were running a retail shop in the US I definitely would accept payment by Venmo if I could.
- briandear 6y ago
  Apple Pay is the thing. And it makes peer to peer money moving simple while not violating privacy like Venmo. You can use Apple Cash or a payment card. It’s all pretty easy — and private. Venmo is a privacy nightmare. You can use Apple Pay without even having a debit or credit card.
  - mc10 6y ago
    Apple Pay doesn't solve anything on the merchant's side. There's just nothing in the US with the simplicity and affordability as the various payment apps in Asian countries. For instance, in China WeChat Pay only charges 0.1% above 10,000 RMB (from what various articles say). Square is not even in the same category, charging 2.6% + 10¢. And you don't need to buy any equipment to use WeChat Pay; you just need to pull up a QR code on your phone.