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A lot of the points they make here are real points, and I think AnyList has validity in their actions. I also think it’s not as unmanageable as it seems. Let’

A lot of the points they make here are real points, and I think AnyList has validity in their actions. I also think it’s not as unmanageable as it seems. Let’s analyze this quote, from the article, as it highlights what I imagine are a big crux of this issue: > with the “Hide My Email” option, your spouse or friends obviously won’t know your privaterelay.appleid.com email address, so when they enter your email address, our systems will believe that you don’t have an account Since you know this to be the case, why not have an onboard if flow they Sign In with Apple where you have them A) choose a visibility email used for sharing/communication etc. and B) allow for this email to be their backup email? So if they forget their login or whatever you could just transfer the account to this email instead? Of course this should be opt-in but you can always Under good faith explain benefits there in. It’s more work, but I don’t believe that it’s going to run issue with Apple and provides end users with flexibility. Of course this may not be worth it, at all. This is just a consideration worth thinking about as an app developer edit: Of course another alternative here is they just make users aware of what their sharing email is and allow users to optionally change that, if they want to. This most definitely wouldn’t run counter to this I’d think

danudey 6y ago
> Since you know this to be the case, why not have an onboard if flow they Sign In with Apple where you have them A) choose a visibility email used for sharing/communication etc. and B) allow for this email to be their backup email? So if they forget their login or whatever you could just transfer the account to this email instead? I'm fairly certain that detecting someone hiding their e-mail from you and then making them pick a different e-mail goes against the spirit, if not the rules, of Sign In with Apple. That said, it would be extremely beneficial to pop up a screen saying "Hey, is this the e-mail you want to use for communications?" and let the user decide. That said, removing third-party sign-in is also a fine solution, almost definitely a better one, and simplifies things immensely for everyone involved (assuming their sign-in form in the app supports saving passwords to the keychain).
- ssalka 6y ago
  > making them pick a different e-mail I think it's more about _letting_ them pick a different email. While I can understand that AnyList (or any other app for that matter) would want to, on occasion, send marketing emails to users, I don't think any app would, in their right mind, _require_ the user to provide a 2nd email address. But by allowing them to optionally give that 2nd address, they can provide a path forwards with people being able to use Sign In With Apple (of course, that means some users may opt out of marketing emails entirely by refusing to provide a 2nd address). This does probably go against the spirit of the feature, but if it actually is against Apple's rules to be doing this (anyone know the answer to this?), then it would definitely veer on the side of user hostility on Apple's part, since I would expect many apps to be taking a stance similar to the one taken by AnyList here.
  - addicted 6y ago
    So someone explicitly chose to hide their email, and then on logging into an app is asked to share their real email. Anyone in that position would think the app is shady AF and user hostile.
    - WorldMaker 6y ago
      Progressive consent makes sense though: in starting out with an app that i have no previous trust relationship, "Hide my email" sounds like a good idea in a trial balloon. If after using the application it tells me that to better use its collaboration tools it would like me to consent in giving a more direct email address, I might change my mind given changes in trust relationship (I have been using this app for some time and I trust it more now) and/or greater context for why the app is interested in a more direct email address ("make collaboration easier"). It's not necessarily shady or user hostile when done right, and there are plenty of opportunity to add trust relationship building as a part of the consent process (links to privacy policies; details about marketing policies; etc). It's also not that different from how many iOS applications (at least) are encouraged (in App Store best practices) to handle consent models for location tracking and notifications: ask the user as they become familiar with the application, not up front, and provide as much context as you can.
bberenberg 6y ago
Do you know if this is allowed within the scope of Sign In with Apple policies? A company I work with is implementing Sign In with Apple and said they can't do this. Not sure if they're right or if this is their weird interpretation.
- no_wizard 6y ago
  I couldn’t find anything in an admittedly shallow search of the requirements or documentation. Of course another alternative here is they just make users aware of what their sharing email is and allow users to optionally change that, if they want to. I think their perfectly valid to do what they’re doing but I also don’t buy into this being an overly complicated logistical hurdle either
elondaits 6y ago
In a perfect world people would share things with you without entering your private email address in other people's systems. I don't want to be in the database of whatever app or system my friends decided to join, nor I want to receive spam from these companies. Many of the objections come from wanting to do things the old way, without privacy and responsible handling of private data.
- ehsankia 6y ago
  > Many of the objections come from wanting to do things the old way, without privacy and responsible handling of private data. No, they come from the fact that privacy comes at a cost. In this case, it's much harder to receive support, find your account if you lose it, and get proper communication. Everything is a trade off, and anyone who thinks the reason things have been done this way is only to scoop up as much data as possible is either brainwashed or naive. These changes are adding a whole new layer of complexity, which may be worth it in some cases, but in others it just is a net negative for the customer.
- closeparen 6y ago
  Can you elaborate on "private email address"? I'd be offended if someone were careless with a more intimate identifier like my personal cell phone number, but I've always considered arms-length interactions with businesses and institutions I'm not fully on board with to be the whole point of email.
  - faet 6y ago
    I have a private email address and a catch all address for a variety of websites. {app_name}@example.com goes to the same place, but it is easy for me to see if they sell/lose my email. And if it gets lost I'm done with them I can just block that specific address. The added benefit is no one can assume that {my_name}@example.com is my bank email address or my email login. I used to have a standard {username}@gmail.com for a while, but now it is on 20+ breached site lists. Best case? Copious amounts of spam. Worst case? I may have been reusing a password prior to switching to a password manager. Now, I can just block the email from receiving anything. Two, if I accidentally reuse a password the username is at least different.
duxup 6y ago
I wonder if Apple would be ok with asking them to give up their email? Apple clearly likes the idea of the hide option... personally I would expect a less than positive reception from Apple. I get where both AnyList (if they asked) and Apple (if they didn't like it) would be coming from here. It does seem to be a shortcoming here where outside of a user one time sign up situation... you don't want to have to burden the user with coming up with silly names and codes to use social like features that require someone else knowing an identifier for you that isn't email. I don't want to go back to a time where we have to remember / pass along everyone's ICQ number. ...
- whateveracct 6y ago
  I don't think Apple would care about asking for email for legitimate use. I thought the point of Sign in with Apple is that it decouples giving away your email from signing up. Not that it bans apps from collecting emails in any way.
  - duxup 6y ago
    I hope so.
- crispyporkbites 6y ago
  Why should Apple be allowed to dictate if an app asks for an email address? They should not become the defacto law makers of our society
  - duxup 6y ago
    I'm not sure they should be able to, but I assume they could disable Sign in with Apple for a given site if they wished.
    - barkerja 6y ago
      This applies to any SSO.
  - 6y ago
envolt 6y ago
Having a user name solve this. Github collaboration works the same way.
m_eiman 6y ago
> with the “Hide My Email” option, your spouse or friends obviously won’t know your privaterelay.appleid.com email address, so when they enter your email address, our systems will believe that you don’t have an account Just create an invitation or "share list" link and let the user send it in any way they prefer, be it AirDrop, email or SMS. The recipient clicks the link, and the service can connect the two accounts as needed (allowing the potentially new user to create an account as needed).

danudey 6y ago

> Since you know this to be the case, why not have an onboard if flow they Sign In with Apple where you have them A) choose a visibility email used for sharing/communication etc. and B) allow for this email to be their backup email? So if they forget their login or whatever you could just transfer the account to this email instead? I'm fairly certain that detecting someone hiding their e-mail from you and then making them pick a different e-mail goes against the spirit, if not the rules, of Sign In with Apple. That said, it would be extremely beneficial to pop up a screen saying "Hey, is this the e-mail you want to use for communications?" and let the user decide. That said, removing third-party sign-in is also a fine solution, almost definitely a better one, and simplifies things immensely for everyone involved (assuming their sign-in form in the app supports saving passwords to the keychain).

ssalka 6y ago
> making them pick a different e-mail I think it's more about _letting_ them pick a different email. While I can understand that AnyList (or any other app for that matter) would want to, on occasion, send marketing emails to users, I don't think any app would, in their right mind, _require_ the user to provide a 2nd email address. But by allowing them to optionally give that 2nd address, they can provide a path forwards with people being able to use Sign In With Apple (of course, that means some users may opt out of marketing emails entirely by refusing to provide a 2nd address). This does probably go against the spirit of the feature, but if it actually is against Apple's rules to be doing this (anyone know the answer to this?), then it would definitely veer on the side of user hostility on Apple's part, since I would expect many apps to be taking a stance similar to the one taken by AnyList here.
- addicted 6y ago
  So someone explicitly chose to hide their email, and then on logging into an app is asked to share their real email. Anyone in that position would think the app is shady AF and user hostile.
  - WorldMaker 6y ago
    Progressive consent makes sense though: in starting out with an app that i have no previous trust relationship, "Hide my email" sounds like a good idea in a trial balloon. If after using the application it tells me that to better use its collaboration tools it would like me to consent in giving a more direct email address, I might change my mind given changes in trust relationship (I have been using this app for some time and I trust it more now) and/or greater context for why the app is interested in a more direct email address ("make collaboration easier"). It's not necessarily shady or user hostile when done right, and there are plenty of opportunity to add trust relationship building as a part of the consent process (links to privacy policies; details about marketing policies; etc). It's also not that different from how many iOS applications (at least) are encouraged (in App Store best practices) to handle consent models for location tracking and notifications: ask the user as they become familiar with the application, not up front, and provide as much context as you can.

bberenberg 6y ago

Do you know if this is allowed within the scope of Sign In with Apple policies? A company I work with is implementing Sign In with Apple and said they can't do this. Not sure if they're right or if this is their weird interpretation.

no_wizard 6y ago
I couldn’t find anything in an admittedly shallow search of the requirements or documentation. Of course another alternative here is they just make users aware of what their sharing email is and allow users to optionally change that, if they want to. I think their perfectly valid to do what they’re doing but I also don’t buy into this being an overly complicated logistical hurdle either

elondaits 6y ago

In a perfect world people would share things with you without entering your private email address in other people's systems. I don't want to be in the database of whatever app or system my friends decided to join, nor I want to receive spam from these companies. Many of the objections come from wanting to do things the old way, without privacy and responsible handling of private data.

ehsankia 6y ago
> Many of the objections come from wanting to do things the old way, without privacy and responsible handling of private data. No, they come from the fact that privacy comes at a cost. In this case, it's much harder to receive support, find your account if you lose it, and get proper communication. Everything is a trade off, and anyone who thinks the reason things have been done this way is only to scoop up as much data as possible is either brainwashed or naive. These changes are adding a whole new layer of complexity, which may be worth it in some cases, but in others it just is a net negative for the customer.
closeparen 6y ago
Can you elaborate on "private email address"? I'd be offended if someone were careless with a more intimate identifier like my personal cell phone number, but I've always considered arms-length interactions with businesses and institutions I'm not fully on board with to be the whole point of email.
- faet 6y ago
  I have a private email address and a catch all address for a variety of websites. {app_name}@example.com goes to the same place, but it is easy for me to see if they sell/lose my email. And if it gets lost I'm done with them I can just block that specific address. The added benefit is no one can assume that {my_name}@example.com is my bank email address or my email login. I used to have a standard {username}@gmail.com for a while, but now it is on 20+ breached site lists. Best case? Copious amounts of spam. Worst case? I may have been reusing a password prior to switching to a password manager. Now, I can just block the email from receiving anything. Two, if I accidentally reuse a password the username is at least different.

duxup 6y ago

I wonder if Apple would be ok with asking them to give up their email? Apple clearly likes the idea of the hide option... personally I would expect a less than positive reception from Apple. I get where both AnyList (if they asked) and Apple (if they didn't like it) would be coming from here. It does seem to be a shortcoming here where outside of a user one time sign up situation... you don't want to have to burden the user with coming up with silly names and codes to use social like features that require someone else knowing an identifier for you that isn't email. I don't want to go back to a time where we have to remember / pass along everyone's ICQ number. ...

whateveracct 6y ago
I don't think Apple would care about asking for email for legitimate use. I thought the point of Sign in with Apple is that it decouples giving away your email from signing up. Not that it bans apps from collecting emails in any way.
- duxup 6y ago
  I hope so.
crispyporkbites 6y ago
Why should Apple be allowed to dictate if an app asks for an email address? They should not become the defacto law makers of our society
- duxup 6y ago
  I'm not sure they should be able to, but I assume they could disable Sign in with Apple for a given site if they wished.
  - barkerja 6y ago
    This applies to any SSO.
- 6y ago

envolt 6y ago

Having a user name solve this. Github collaboration works the same way.

m_eiman 6y ago

> with the “Hide My Email” option, your spouse or friends obviously won’t know your privaterelay.appleid.com email address, so when they enter your email address, our systems will believe that you don’t have an account Just create an invitation or "share list" link and let the user send it in any way they prefer, be it AirDrop, email or SMS. The recipient clicks the link, and the service can connect the two accounts as needed (allowing the potentially new user to create an account as needed).