6 ms·

I don't see a problem with targeting Chinese-made apps, given how much China blocks from other countries. Free trade has to work both ways.

ngold 6y ago
I don't see a problem with banning Spyware regardless of the country of origin.
- systemvoltage 6y ago
  The parent comment isn't talking about spyware. Imagine if US.app and China.app were both clean, no spyware. If China subsidizes and allows China.app to have access to their domestic market but bans US.app, while US allows China.app to rake in billions of dollars in revenue in the US - this is purely an economic fairness and global trade issue. There is no sane defensive argument against this. Chinese market is 1.3 billion people. It is massive. Not allowing western apps/services to serve this market is unfair in every imaginable way. I would say the US should ban all CCP services/apps, etc until China opens up its borders for any country to service their people. This shouldn't just apply to US. Are you an Italian software company? Do you need to kow-tow to the CCP or plainly banned from serving in China? Swedish company? English? Australian? German? French? This has nothing to do with nationalism or politics which divides us all. It is about preserving global trade to the benefit of all nations and following fair practices and requirements set forth by the WTO. All democracies need to get together and put light on this problem. I think that's happenning: https://www.ipac.global/ https://www.ipac.global/ There is also no mystery around this - China does not want to expose their citizens to international values, services, culture and information. Thus, this diplomatic/economic pressure hits the nerve center of the CCP machinery.
  - ehsankia 6y ago
    The reality is closer to "Imagine if US.app and China.app were both spyware" But India only banned the China spyware and left the US spyware roam free. If they truly cared about spyware, many other apps do similar stuff, scooping just as much data.
    - systemvoltage 6y ago
      Even if you had no spyware, you cannot compete in China. So, twisting the topic about Spyware left and right does disservice to the the truth of the what's going on. Spyware problem (which I condemn) is irrelevant and orthogonal.
    - quantummkv 6y ago
      The big difference here is that the US is not engaged in an armed, public war with India over territory. And the US is currently friendly with India. The US spyware might be a problem in the future. But the Chinese spyware is a big problem right now. Both require different strategies to counter. And the immediate concern and first priority will always be China
  - hellotomyrars 6y ago
    Unfair? Unfair to who? Whether I agree with it or not (I don't). China gets to have it's cake and eat it too. Big win for China, wouldn't you say? If everyone else is willing to leave the cake on the table, It's perfectly fair for China to have it if you ask me.
    - BobbyJo 6y ago
      Did you not read anything you're responding to? Your whole comment is senseless in context.
      - hellotomyrars 6y ago
        I don't really think it is. Regardless of the moral/ethical issues with China and it's relationship with it's own population, this is China serving it's population. It is in China's best interest to provide maximum value for China, that includes it's citizens. I don't think it's "unfair" for China to leverage whatever tools are at its disposal for the benefit of China. In context the argument being presented here is that other countries are failing to do what is in the best interest for their populations. I don't think that's something that China should be taken to task for in this context. India has huge operations of illegal but semi-tolerated scams that target gullible Americans with tech scams. India is a huge developing nation and likely to become a serious economic power. They are partially doing this off the back of taking wealth from where it is concentrated and bringing it home. I don't agree with it but it makes sense for India to do it to serve it's own people.
        BobbyJo 6y ago
        The original point was that China was seeking an asymetrical market which is unfair. I was responding to a comment that seemed to think that wasn't unfair to anyone. You seem to support the original comment in that China is indeed seeking an unfair advantage as long as it thinks it can get away with it. Not sure what you think you're rebutting. India's scam economy doesn't really have anything to do with the discussion, but if you want to have a completely different discussion on that topic the US has been applying considerable pressure on their government to crack down on that practice.
  - stevens32 6y ago
    One reason is if US.app is allowed on the Chinese market, it will dominate due to massive technology advantage and obliterate any chance of a homegrown industry. Open markets let players who are ahead get further ahead and they don't want to kneecap their own technology industry.
    - systemvoltage 6y ago
      It is hard to read this response being written on the platform (YCombinator forums - HN) that is designed to disrupt established monopologies, duopolies; which is poised to cut through the decades of crud piled up in every imaginable industry, and offer a new perspective; a bold, fundamental rethinking of everything from quantum computers to wind energy, from payment services to logistics; despite of the existing competition, bureaucratic barriers and red tape, government mandates, political turbulence and geopolitical forces, vendor lock-ins and exclusive contracts, entrenched and exploitative practices, despite massive open market on an international scale and allowing anyone from any country to participate and compete.
    - Aperocky 6y ago
      > app has a massive technology advantage Yeah, no.
- TulliusCicero 6y ago
  Sure, but I'm not just talking about spyware. China bans lots of 'Western' apps and services that aren't spyware; Wikipedia is an obvious example.
eugeniub 6y ago
China restricts the freedom of its citizens, so other countries should restrict the freedom of their own citizens in exchange?
- foogazi 6y ago
  China restricts other countries’ access to its market - other countries retaliate
- marcusverus 6y ago
  It's a cost benefit analysis. We may value free speech, but not so much that we are willing to protect the right to tell 'FIRE!' on a crowded theatre. The cost of that 'freedom' is not worth the benefit. Access to a few Chinese apps is not worth the cost, which is providing China with access to sensitive personal data (WeChat) and/or subtle propaganda tools(TikTok). Anyway, if you ban either app, alternatives will quickly fill the void and the consumer loses nothing.
- ejanus 6y ago
  I don't see it that way. This is not freedom at all. But throwing others out of your home turf while cornering others' markets. Business should be two way thing.
baddox 6y ago
I don't understand that argument. It sounds like you're saying that the way to get freer trade is for all parties to restrict trade, since "free trade has to work both ways."
- zelphirkalt 6y ago
  I think that was exactly the intended irony of that comment.
- TulliusCicero 6y ago
  I'm saying free trade ought to be reciprocal. If one side is gaming the system by blocking foreign competitors while competing in those foreign markets, then that side should in turn be blocked until they're willing to change their tune. China can be allowed to compete in other markets when they allow others to compete in their market.
  - baddox 6y ago
    Then the outcome is that a country can claim to support free trade while deliberately not supporting free trade, since "it's the other countries' fault."
    - TulliusCicero 6y ago
      No, they can't. If the US were to ban Chinese apps, and then China relented and allowed in American apps, and then the US kept the ban, that would make the hypocrisy clear. You could even made it explicit in the law, similar to what the EU is doing for travel reciprocity now that the coronavirus situation isn't as bad: have the text of the law explicitly say that the ban automatically lifts if the other country cooperates.
      - baddox 6y ago
        That’s exactly what I’m saying. To actually get free trade a country has to refuse to reciprocate in trade restrictions. This is my point, it’s not “free trade” for one country to match other countries’ restrictions on trade.

ngold 6y ago

I don't see a problem with banning Spyware regardless of the country of origin.

systemvoltage 6y ago
The parent comment isn't talking about spyware. Imagine if US.app and China.app were both clean, no spyware. If China subsidizes and allows China.app to have access to their domestic market but bans US.app, while US allows China.app to rake in billions of dollars in revenue in the US - this is purely an economic fairness and global trade issue. There is no sane defensive argument against this. Chinese market is 1.3 billion people. It is massive. Not allowing western apps/services to serve this market is unfair in every imaginable way. I would say the US should ban all CCP services/apps, etc until China opens up its borders for any country to service their people. This shouldn't just apply to US. Are you an Italian software company? Do you need to kow-tow to the CCP or plainly banned from serving in China? Swedish company? English? Australian? German? French? This has nothing to do with nationalism or politics which divides us all. It is about preserving global trade to the benefit of all nations and following fair practices and requirements set forth by the WTO. All democracies need to get together and put light on this problem. I think that's happenning: https://www.ipac.global/ https://www.ipac.global/ There is also no mystery around this - China does not want to expose their citizens to international values, services, culture and information. Thus, this diplomatic/economic pressure hits the nerve center of the CCP machinery.
- ehsankia 6y ago
  The reality is closer to "Imagine if US.app and China.app were both spyware" But India only banned the China spyware and left the US spyware roam free. If they truly cared about spyware, many other apps do similar stuff, scooping just as much data.
  - systemvoltage 6y ago
    Even if you had no spyware, you cannot compete in China. So, twisting the topic about Spyware left and right does disservice to the the truth of the what's going on. Spyware problem (which I condemn) is irrelevant and orthogonal.
  - quantummkv 6y ago
    The big difference here is that the US is not engaged in an armed, public war with India over territory. And the US is currently friendly with India. The US spyware might be a problem in the future. But the Chinese spyware is a big problem right now. Both require different strategies to counter. And the immediate concern and first priority will always be China
- hellotomyrars 6y ago
  Unfair? Unfair to who? Whether I agree with it or not (I don't). China gets to have it's cake and eat it too. Big win for China, wouldn't you say? If everyone else is willing to leave the cake on the table, It's perfectly fair for China to have it if you ask me.
  - BobbyJo 6y ago
    Did you not read anything you're responding to? Your whole comment is senseless in context.
    - hellotomyrars 6y ago
      I don't really think it is. Regardless of the moral/ethical issues with China and it's relationship with it's own population, this is China serving it's population. It is in China's best interest to provide maximum value for China, that includes it's citizens. I don't think it's "unfair" for China to leverage whatever tools are at its disposal for the benefit of China. In context the argument being presented here is that other countries are failing to do what is in the best interest for their populations. I don't think that's something that China should be taken to task for in this context. India has huge operations of illegal but semi-tolerated scams that target gullible Americans with tech scams. India is a huge developing nation and likely to become a serious economic power. They are partially doing this off the back of taking wealth from where it is concentrated and bringing it home. I don't agree with it but it makes sense for India to do it to serve it's own people.
      - BobbyJo 6y ago
        The original point was that China was seeking an asymetrical market which is unfair. I was responding to a comment that seemed to think that wasn't unfair to anyone. You seem to support the original comment in that China is indeed seeking an unfair advantage as long as it thinks it can get away with it. Not sure what you think you're rebutting. India's scam economy doesn't really have anything to do with the discussion, but if you want to have a completely different discussion on that topic the US has been applying considerable pressure on their government to crack down on that practice.
- stevens32 6y ago
  One reason is if US.app is allowed on the Chinese market, it will dominate due to massive technology advantage and obliterate any chance of a homegrown industry. Open markets let players who are ahead get further ahead and they don't want to kneecap their own technology industry.
  - systemvoltage 6y ago
    It is hard to read this response being written on the platform (YCombinator forums - HN) that is designed to disrupt established monopologies, duopolies; which is poised to cut through the decades of crud piled up in every imaginable industry, and offer a new perspective; a bold, fundamental rethinking of everything from quantum computers to wind energy, from payment services to logistics; despite of the existing competition, bureaucratic barriers and red tape, government mandates, political turbulence and geopolitical forces, vendor lock-ins and exclusive contracts, entrenched and exploitative practices, despite massive open market on an international scale and allowing anyone from any country to participate and compete.
  - Aperocky 6y ago
    > app has a massive technology advantage Yeah, no.
TulliusCicero 6y ago
Sure, but I'm not just talking about spyware. China bans lots of 'Western' apps and services that aren't spyware; Wikipedia is an obvious example.

eugeniub 6y ago

China restricts the freedom of its citizens, so other countries should restrict the freedom of their own citizens in exchange?

foogazi 6y ago
China restricts other countries’ access to its market - other countries retaliate
marcusverus 6y ago
It's a cost benefit analysis. We may value free speech, but not so much that we are willing to protect the right to tell 'FIRE!' on a crowded theatre. The cost of that 'freedom' is not worth the benefit. Access to a few Chinese apps is not worth the cost, which is providing China with access to sensitive personal data (WeChat) and/or subtle propaganda tools(TikTok). Anyway, if you ban either app, alternatives will quickly fill the void and the consumer loses nothing.
ejanus 6y ago
I don't see it that way. This is not freedom at all. But throwing others out of your home turf while cornering others' markets. Business should be two way thing.

baddox 6y ago

I don't understand that argument. It sounds like you're saying that the way to get freer trade is for all parties to restrict trade, since "free trade has to work both ways."

zelphirkalt 6y ago
I think that was exactly the intended irony of that comment.
TulliusCicero 6y ago
I'm saying free trade ought to be reciprocal. If one side is gaming the system by blocking foreign competitors while competing in those foreign markets, then that side should in turn be blocked until they're willing to change their tune. China can be allowed to compete in other markets when they allow others to compete in their market.
- baddox 6y ago
  Then the outcome is that a country can claim to support free trade while deliberately not supporting free trade, since "it's the other countries' fault."
  - TulliusCicero 6y ago
    No, they can't. If the US were to ban Chinese apps, and then China relented and allowed in American apps, and then the US kept the ban, that would make the hypocrisy clear. You could even made it explicit in the law, similar to what the EU is doing for travel reciprocity now that the coronavirus situation isn't as bad: have the text of the law explicitly say that the ban automatically lifts if the other country cooperates.
    - baddox 6y ago
      That’s exactly what I’m saying. To actually get free trade a country has to refuse to reciprocate in trade restrictions. This is my point, it’s not “free trade” for one country to match other countries’ restrictions on trade.