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I would find it very problematic if the US government attempted to interfere with it's citizens downloading whatever software they want. I absolutely do not tru

I would find it very problematic if the US government attempted to interfere with it's citizens downloading whatever software they want. I absolutely do not trust the US government to be the arbitrator of what app's are "safe".

ppeetteerr 6y ago
This is a common sentiment: distrust in the US government. Given that 30% of income goes to the feds, might be time to change the government to be more trust worthy. Good thing elections are coming up.
- markovbot 6y ago
  This is a pretty common response: just vote for the other guy. Too bad no one trustworthy is running for the executive office.
  - arcticbull 6y ago
    So it's time to change the system. Ranked choice voting and a third party could make a world of difference. Continuing to give all your money to an entity you don't trust isn't a working plan. It leads to, for instance, the COVID response. Defeatism around something so critically important to the success of a country isn't a plan.
    - markovbot 6y ago
      I was not trying to suggest defeatism, just sick of hearing voting in the current system as a reasonable response to anything. Not saying don't vote, just saying stop suggesting it's the way to fix specific problems. Voting probably won't fix most problems. Absolutely, one of the big systemic changes we need to effect is a switch to ranked choice voting. There are several other significant changes to the US's voting system that would also be needed. Things like a complete elimination of voting machines, and honestly a full switch to vote-by-mail would probably help. Of course, the voting system in this country isn't even the biggest problem, some how. Things need to change before next election, not in a few election cycles.
  - Avamander 6y ago
    As long as there isn't a better system, voting for the lesser evil seems like the least one could do. You can continue the fight for a better system when you don't have an actively racist president for example.
    - markovbot 6y ago
      I'm not proposing not voting. I'm just sick of hearing it offered as if it's somehow a solution to the increasingly obvious fact that the US government is fundamentally incapable of doing the basic things expected of it by it's citizens, like being trusted to not abuse it's power when doing things like gating access to potentially dangerous software. Obviously it would be really REALLY nice if there was a trustworthy entity who could do that, but it's pretty absurd to suggest that if we simply vote for the other guy suddenly the US government will be that entity.
  - ppeetteerr 6y ago
    There are many layers of power. You have senators, house representatives, and a president. You also have local (includes police services) and state representatives. The executive branch is just one of many governments you get to vote for.
- controversy 6y ago
  With whom shall we fill the seats? The only party truly interested in liberty is the Libertarians. I doubt they can get their act together to provide a reasoned, unified platform. They need more than sound bites and a guy in an oversized hat or boot. I like them. I lean that way. I vote for the candidate for president, but they are not a good party. Let’s look at the latest tragity, the EARN IT bill you will see that this is a bi-partisan effort. The Democrats are not standing in opposition. They are co-sponsors. https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/3398/cosponsors?searchResultViewType=expanded https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/339...
- filoleg 6y ago
  >This is a common sentiment: distrust in the US government. No, this ain't just it. Even if I trusted the current US government (which is already a shaky premise to begin with), I cannot be sure I will trust the US government that will be in place in 10 years or 20 years. And once you give them that power, there is no easy way to put it back in the box. So, for me at least, it is less about distrust and more of a "freedom" or "systems" sort of an argument. I am ok with the government issuing some sort of an "advisory list" of potentially invasive apps. But no, I don't want government to essentially preventing me from using certain apps due to "privacy concerns", if I am aware of the risks and still want to proceed.
  - ppeetteerr 6y ago
    This is the same argument I'm hearing from people who refuse to wear masks. Unfortunately, the freedom of some is a security risk for others. Any government is only as good as the trust people place in it. A trusted government invites trust-worthy candidates, is held to a higher standard of transparency, etc. If you want a government that you can trust, you may want to write to your congress-people and ask, for instance, that they ban corporate funding of elections (through those ridiculous dinners), Super PACs, etc. By the people, for the people, after all.
    - Nasrudith 6y ago
      No it isn't comparable at all. Mask requirements are far less exploitable for other purposea than censorship. The far out worst case for abuse is considering an uncovered face public nudity.
      - ppeetteerr 6y ago
        You would think that mask requirement is far less exploitable but I hear from libertarians that the government is not allowed to do so (granted, this is state government we're talking about). This conversation we're having is a little moot, however. The US has already banned online communities advertising sex work, despite them being a great resource for workers looking to better filter their clientele.
- kanox 6y ago
  You're completely missing the point: no government should get to decide what apps to ban.
  - ppeetteerr 6y ago
    In some countries, people trust their government to do the right thing. If the people in power believe that an app is a security risk, they ban it.
    - Nasrudith 6y ago
      Then people are fucking morons. There are no two ways about it - abusable power will be abused. Hell "security risk" as a rationale is a vague layer to shield from criticism of policies. Since it is implicitly the magical special pleading wand known as "national security".
      - ppeetteerr 6y ago
        You might think so, but I would point to the fact that the US democracy is being attacked via social means from Russia, and possibly other governments. Then you have municipal governments having their networks locked down by ransomware from foreign agents. Not to forget how many acts of espionage take place through our internet. Might not be a bad idea to limit the amount of foreign access to local data. My examples are not apps, but a threat is a thread.
      - thowme245 6y ago
        Easy to call people morons when more than 20% of the people are illiterate and support their government when it's acting in their interest.
    - balfirevic 6y ago
      > In some countries, people trust their government to do the right thing. In some countries, some people trust their government to do such things, and it may even be majority of people. That doesn't help the portion of citizens that get such decisions imposed on them against their will.
- Ajedi32 6y ago
  The US government was founded upon the idea that the US government is not to be trusted. That's why our constitution features a separation of powers and contains a non-exhaustive list of things the government is explicitly not allowed to do. If the government were trustworthy, such restrictions would not be necessary.
systemvoltage 6y ago
What are your thoughts about China banning anything but local apps/services for domestic use but the rest of the world is OK with allowing Chinese apps/services to compete with the domestic apps/services? I think there is some level of asymmetry here, not sure how best to resolve it without giving up the citizen's freedoms as you expressed. This asymmetry is problematic because western democracies are barred to profit from Chinese market (1.3 billion people) and the Chinese companies which are in bed with the CCP would benefit domestically + internationally. That's unfair I think. One compromise would be to promote democracies around the world and incentivize apps/services developed, operated and controlled in democratic environments.
- neilpanchal 6y ago
  Just like you'd buy coffee with Fair Trade [1] mark, one way to incentivize the public would be through marketing - "Made in Democracy" mark on a laptop, a lathe-machine, a watch or what have you. We should have a non-profit org that promotes manufacturing in democracies. From shirts to iOS apps, it would be interesting to experiment with a "Made in Democracy" or "Developed in Democracy" mark. I ran this idea through a manufacturing consultant in SF and they were very receptive of it. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_trade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_trade
  - ativzzz 6y ago
    You mean like the CE logo that marks products safe in Europe? Chinese companies are practically faking it: https://www.ybw.com/vhf-marine-radio-guide/warning-dont-get-confused-between-the-ce-mark-and-the-china-export-mark-4607 https://www.ybw.com/vhf-marine-radio-guide/warning-dont-get-...
    - neilpanchal 6y ago
      That's absolutely reprehensible and cunning. In addition to counterfeiting and deception, another problem is in the definition of what constitutes, for example, a "Made in Switzerland" product. According to Swiss law, 60% of the manufacturing BOM cost needs to be domestically sourced [1]. Therein lies the problem of enforcement as well as impossibilities due to the entangled supply-chain with China as well as accountability and prevention of abuse. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_made https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_made
Avamander 6y ago
Well, the US goverment has interfered with it's citizens downloading whatever software they want, and is currently doing so via embargoes. I think banning spyware is less problematic than the rest of the current and past interference and might actually have some positive effects.
kahlonel 6y ago
Problematic for whom? The average citizen doesn't realize the threats and has no idea of safe/unsafe, so there must be someone to decide for them. People who are aware of threats, and are willing to accept the risks can surely find their way around the bans.
nostromo 6y ago
The US however could enact privacy laws, which could force TikTok into compliance.
kumarvvr 6y ago
The average citizen is dumb enough to not be able to discern spyware from innocent apps. It is the duty of the government to protect its citizens from foreign influence and banning apps is a legitimate exercise of the govts power in fulfilling that duty.
ralmidani 6y ago
While I share your skepticism toward the US government, phone apps are different from books and even from websites; I don’t trust apps made by a company subject to CCP influence and/or control, nor do I think the usual arguments against censorship apply.
d0100 6y ago
I would to. However, I wouldn't oppose there being a "cyber martial law" if there was some sort of "cyber declaration of war" that would enable the US government to declare software/hardware products from another country to not be used in native soil (while in "cyber war"). The US doesn't have to allow a malicious player to map their whole infrastructure and technology usage habits. Democracy is very hard, why would the US have to allow other countries to be able to have such a strong profile and possible blackmail on its citizens?
pvelagal 6y ago
https://www.hawley.senate.gov/senators-hawley-scott-introduce-legislation-ban-tiktok-government-devices https://www.hawley.senate.gov/senators-hawley-scott-introduc...

ppeetteerr 6y ago

This is a common sentiment: distrust in the US government. Given that 30% of income goes to the feds, might be time to change the government to be more trust worthy. Good thing elections are coming up.

markovbot 6y ago
This is a pretty common response: just vote for the other guy. Too bad no one trustworthy is running for the executive office.
- arcticbull 6y ago
  So it's time to change the system. Ranked choice voting and a third party could make a world of difference. Continuing to give all your money to an entity you don't trust isn't a working plan. It leads to, for instance, the COVID response. Defeatism around something so critically important to the success of a country isn't a plan.
  - markovbot 6y ago
    I was not trying to suggest defeatism, just sick of hearing voting in the current system as a reasonable response to anything. Not saying don't vote, just saying stop suggesting it's the way to fix specific problems. Voting probably won't fix most problems. Absolutely, one of the big systemic changes we need to effect is a switch to ranked choice voting. There are several other significant changes to the US's voting system that would also be needed. Things like a complete elimination of voting machines, and honestly a full switch to vote-by-mail would probably help. Of course, the voting system in this country isn't even the biggest problem, some how. Things need to change before next election, not in a few election cycles.
- Avamander 6y ago
  As long as there isn't a better system, voting for the lesser evil seems like the least one could do. You can continue the fight for a better system when you don't have an actively racist president for example.
  - markovbot 6y ago
    I'm not proposing not voting. I'm just sick of hearing it offered as if it's somehow a solution to the increasingly obvious fact that the US government is fundamentally incapable of doing the basic things expected of it by it's citizens, like being trusted to not abuse it's power when doing things like gating access to potentially dangerous software. Obviously it would be really REALLY nice if there was a trustworthy entity who could do that, but it's pretty absurd to suggest that if we simply vote for the other guy suddenly the US government will be that entity.
- ppeetteerr 6y ago
  There are many layers of power. You have senators, house representatives, and a president. You also have local (includes police services) and state representatives. The executive branch is just one of many governments you get to vote for.
controversy 6y ago
With whom shall we fill the seats? The only party truly interested in liberty is the Libertarians. I doubt they can get their act together to provide a reasoned, unified platform. They need more than sound bites and a guy in an oversized hat or boot. I like them. I lean that way. I vote for the candidate for president, but they are not a good party. Let’s look at the latest tragity, the EARN IT bill you will see that this is a bi-partisan effort. The Democrats are not standing in opposition. They are co-sponsors. https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/3398/cosponsors?searchResultViewType=expanded https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/339...
filoleg 6y ago
>This is a common sentiment: distrust in the US government. No, this ain't just it. Even if I trusted the current US government (which is already a shaky premise to begin with), I cannot be sure I will trust the US government that will be in place in 10 years or 20 years. And once you give them that power, there is no easy way to put it back in the box. So, for me at least, it is less about distrust and more of a "freedom" or "systems" sort of an argument. I am ok with the government issuing some sort of an "advisory list" of potentially invasive apps. But no, I don't want government to essentially preventing me from using certain apps due to "privacy concerns", if I am aware of the risks and still want to proceed.
- ppeetteerr 6y ago
  This is the same argument I'm hearing from people who refuse to wear masks. Unfortunately, the freedom of some is a security risk for others. Any government is only as good as the trust people place in it. A trusted government invites trust-worthy candidates, is held to a higher standard of transparency, etc. If you want a government that you can trust, you may want to write to your congress-people and ask, for instance, that they ban corporate funding of elections (through those ridiculous dinners), Super PACs, etc. By the people, for the people, after all.
  - Nasrudith 6y ago
    No it isn't comparable at all. Mask requirements are far less exploitable for other purposea than censorship. The far out worst case for abuse is considering an uncovered face public nudity.
    - ppeetteerr 6y ago
      You would think that mask requirement is far less exploitable but I hear from libertarians that the government is not allowed to do so (granted, this is state government we're talking about). This conversation we're having is a little moot, however. The US has already banned online communities advertising sex work, despite them being a great resource for workers looking to better filter their clientele.
kanox 6y ago
You're completely missing the point: no government should get to decide what apps to ban.
- ppeetteerr 6y ago
  In some countries, people trust their government to do the right thing. If the people in power believe that an app is a security risk, they ban it.
  - Nasrudith 6y ago
    Then people are fucking morons. There are no two ways about it - abusable power will be abused. Hell "security risk" as a rationale is a vague layer to shield from criticism of policies. Since it is implicitly the magical special pleading wand known as "national security".
    - ppeetteerr 6y ago
      You might think so, but I would point to the fact that the US democracy is being attacked via social means from Russia, and possibly other governments. Then you have municipal governments having their networks locked down by ransomware from foreign agents. Not to forget how many acts of espionage take place through our internet. Might not be a bad idea to limit the amount of foreign access to local data. My examples are not apps, but a threat is a thread.
    - thowme245 6y ago
      Easy to call people morons when more than 20% of the people are illiterate and support their government when it's acting in their interest.
  - balfirevic 6y ago
    > In some countries, people trust their government to do the right thing. In some countries, some people trust their government to do such things, and it may even be majority of people. That doesn't help the portion of citizens that get such decisions imposed on them against their will.
Ajedi32 6y ago
The US government was founded upon the idea that the US government is not to be trusted. That's why our constitution features a separation of powers and contains a non-exhaustive list of things the government is explicitly not allowed to do. If the government were trustworthy, such restrictions would not be necessary.

systemvoltage 6y ago

What are your thoughts about China banning anything but local apps/services for domestic use but the rest of the world is OK with allowing Chinese apps/services to compete with the domestic apps/services? I think there is some level of asymmetry here, not sure how best to resolve it without giving up the citizen's freedoms as you expressed. This asymmetry is problematic because western democracies are barred to profit from Chinese market (1.3 billion people) and the Chinese companies which are in bed with the CCP would benefit domestically + internationally. That's unfair I think. One compromise would be to promote democracies around the world and incentivize apps/services developed, operated and controlled in democratic environments.

neilpanchal 6y ago
Just like you'd buy coffee with Fair Trade [1] mark, one way to incentivize the public would be through marketing - "Made in Democracy" mark on a laptop, a lathe-machine, a watch or what have you. We should have a non-profit org that promotes manufacturing in democracies. From shirts to iOS apps, it would be interesting to experiment with a "Made in Democracy" or "Developed in Democracy" mark. I ran this idea through a manufacturing consultant in SF and they were very receptive of it. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_trade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_trade
- ativzzz 6y ago
  You mean like the CE logo that marks products safe in Europe? Chinese companies are practically faking it: https://www.ybw.com/vhf-marine-radio-guide/warning-dont-get-confused-between-the-ce-mark-and-the-china-export-mark-4607 https://www.ybw.com/vhf-marine-radio-guide/warning-dont-get-...
  - neilpanchal 6y ago
    That's absolutely reprehensible and cunning. In addition to counterfeiting and deception, another problem is in the definition of what constitutes, for example, a "Made in Switzerland" product. According to Swiss law, 60% of the manufacturing BOM cost needs to be domestically sourced [1]. Therein lies the problem of enforcement as well as impossibilities due to the entangled supply-chain with China as well as accountability and prevention of abuse. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_made https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_made

Avamander 6y ago

Well, the US goverment has interfered with it's citizens downloading whatever software they want, and is currently doing so via embargoes. I think banning spyware is less problematic than the rest of the current and past interference and might actually have some positive effects.

kahlonel 6y ago

Problematic for whom? The average citizen doesn't realize the threats and has no idea of safe/unsafe, so there must be someone to decide for them. People who are aware of threats, and are willing to accept the risks can surely find their way around the bans.

nostromo 6y ago

The US however could enact privacy laws, which could force TikTok into compliance.

kumarvvr 6y ago

The average citizen is dumb enough to not be able to discern spyware from innocent apps. It is the duty of the government to protect its citizens from foreign influence and banning apps is a legitimate exercise of the govts power in fulfilling that duty.

ralmidani 6y ago

While I share your skepticism toward the US government, phone apps are different from books and even from websites; I don’t trust apps made by a company subject to CCP influence and/or control, nor do I think the usual arguments against censorship apply.

d0100 6y ago

I would to. However, I wouldn't oppose there being a "cyber martial law" if there was some sort of "cyber declaration of war" that would enable the US government to declare software/hardware products from another country to not be used in native soil (while in "cyber war"). The US doesn't have to allow a malicious player to map their whole infrastructure and technology usage habits. Democracy is very hard, why would the US have to allow other countries to be able to have such a strong profile and possible blackmail on its citizens?

pvelagal 6y ago

https://www.hawley.senate.gov/senators-hawley-scott-introduce-legislation-ban-tiktok-government-devices https://www.hawley.senate.gov/senators-hawley-scott-introduc...