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I find it hard to take Apple's privacy aspects seriously when they're willing to violate those principles in markets like China [1]. Can we really applaud a com

by doom2 6y ago

I find it hard to take Apple's privacy aspects seriously when they're willing to violate those principles in markets like China [1]. Can we really applaud a company that's willing to give user data to governments, even if they don't do it in the US or EU? [1] https://www.wired.com/story/apple-china-censorship-apps-flag/ https://www.wired.com/story/apple-china-censorship-apps-flag...

jjcon 6y ago
The only option they have is to do what they did or just not sell in China - I would prefer the second but I also don’t have billions of dollars to make from selling there
adamlett 6y ago
I read the article you linked to, and the only thing in it that had a whiff of “willing to give user’s data to governments” is the thing about Apple relying in China on data from a Chinese company for information about malicious sites (instead of Google which Apple relies on in the rest of the world), with speculation from a cryptographer about why that might be cause for concern. What is not mentioned in the article is that Apple addressed those concerns in a statement, showing them to be unfounded: https://www.imore.com/heres-apples-statement-safari-fraudulent-website-warning-and-tencent https://www.imore.com/heres-apples-statement-safari-fraudule....
- fossuser 6y ago
  The handful of things I'm aware of: - In China Apple allows iCloud infrastructure to be managed by Chinese companies (presumably so they can do bulk collection on user data/message backups). - Apple removes the Taiwanese flag emoji from devices - Apple removes the apps the CCP asks them to from the app store in China (notably this includes podcast apps with access to unapproved speech). I wouldn't be surprised if there were more concessions. I've written more generally about this here: https://zalberico.com/essay/2020/06/13/zoom-in-china.html https://zalberico.com/essay/2020/06/13/zoom-in-china.html Apple is still the best when it comes to protecting their users in the west, but few western companies stand by their principles in the Chinese market. It's disappointing.
  - prewett 6y ago
    You can't stand by western values in the Chinese market, the government won't let you. So your option is play by CCP values or don't play at all. On the plus side, at least the Chinese consumer knows what the CCP values are, so it's not like it comes as a surprise.
  - adamlett 6y ago
    In China Apple allows iCloud infrastructure to be managed by Chinese companies (presumably so they can do bulk collection on user data/message backups). I agree. This absolutely fits the bill. For Apple, it’s either accept this arrangement or don’t do business in China, but it doesn’t change that it has a hollow ring, when Apple talks about privacy as a human right elsewhere. Apple removes the Taiwanese flag emoji from devices That’s a bad look, but it has nothing to do with privacy, and ultimately has no practical consequences for anybody. Apple removes the apps the CCP asks them to from the app store in China (notably this includes podcast apps with access to unapproved speech). Again, that has nothing to do with privacy. I don’t even see how it reflects poorly on Apple. What would you like Apple to do differently here? Should they martyr themselves in protest Chinese laws? What would that accomplish? I wouldn't be surprised if there were more concessions. Undoubtedly, if by concessions you mean complying with local laws in the countries where the do business. Apple is still the best when it comes to protecting their users in the west I’m sure Apple is also among the best when it comes to protecting their users in China. The problem is that Chinese laws don’t allow for the same level of protection as US laws.
    - fossuser 6y ago
      > "That’s a bad look, but it has nothing to do with privacy, and ultimately has no practical consequences for anybody." I agree that it's not narrowly related to privacy, but it demonstrates that Apple is willing to comply with censorship demands from authoritarian governments. When/if China tries to take Taiwan the systemic suppression of Taiwan's existence and independence to the Chinese people may have played a part in what the public is willing to support. These kinds of things add up and have real effects. > "What would you like Apple to do differently here? Should they martyr themselves in protest Chinese laws? What would that accomplish?" I don't want to rehash my blog post linked above, but I'd argue Apple is responsible for the actions they take. They position themselves in the west as protectors of user privacy (refusing to decrypt iPhones, setting up systems where they can't be compelled to), yet in countries with real authoritarian governments where the people are at serious risk, where Uigers are put in camps and sterilized (https://apnews.com/269b3de1af34e17c1941a514f78d764c https://apnews.com/269b3de1af34e17c1941a514f78d764c) Apple just 'follows local laws'. This is not a principled position. What can they do? I'm not sure, but they can start with not being complicit in the oppressive laws of authoritarian countries. Maybe China has too much leverage with their manufacturing, but Apple has a strong brand and people want their devices. Maybe if they held up their principles then people in China would still try to smuggle the phones in? Maybe it's too much to ask for western companies to support human rights everywhere even when there aren't government sanctions to force them, but I wish they did. It's often in these countries that the people need protection the most.

by doom2 6y ago

jjcon 6y ago

The only option they have is to do what they did or just not sell in China - I would prefer the second but I also don’t have billions of dollars to make from selling there

adamlett 6y ago

I read the article you linked to, and the only thing in it that had a whiff of “willing to give user’s data to governments” is the thing about Apple relying in China on data from a Chinese company for information about malicious sites (instead of Google which Apple relies on in the rest of the world), with speculation from a cryptographer about why that might be cause for concern. What is not mentioned in the article is that Apple addressed those concerns in a statement, showing them to be unfounded: https://www.imore.com/heres-apples-statement-safari-fraudulent-website-warning-and-tencent https://www.imore.com/heres-apples-statement-safari-fraudule....

fossuser 6y ago
The handful of things I'm aware of: - In China Apple allows iCloud infrastructure to be managed by Chinese companies (presumably so they can do bulk collection on user data/message backups). - Apple removes the Taiwanese flag emoji from devices - Apple removes the apps the CCP asks them to from the app store in China (notably this includes podcast apps with access to unapproved speech). I wouldn't be surprised if there were more concessions. I've written more generally about this here: https://zalberico.com/essay/2020/06/13/zoom-in-china.html https://zalberico.com/essay/2020/06/13/zoom-in-china.html Apple is still the best when it comes to protecting their users in the west, but few western companies stand by their principles in the Chinese market. It's disappointing.
- prewett 6y ago
  You can't stand by western values in the Chinese market, the government won't let you. So your option is play by CCP values or don't play at all. On the plus side, at least the Chinese consumer knows what the CCP values are, so it's not like it comes as a surprise.
- adamlett 6y ago
  In China Apple allows iCloud infrastructure to be managed by Chinese companies (presumably so they can do bulk collection on user data/message backups). I agree. This absolutely fits the bill. For Apple, it’s either accept this arrangement or don’t do business in China, but it doesn’t change that it has a hollow ring, when Apple talks about privacy as a human right elsewhere. Apple removes the Taiwanese flag emoji from devices That’s a bad look, but it has nothing to do with privacy, and ultimately has no practical consequences for anybody. Apple removes the apps the CCP asks them to from the app store in China (notably this includes podcast apps with access to unapproved speech). Again, that has nothing to do with privacy. I don’t even see how it reflects poorly on Apple. What would you like Apple to do differently here? Should they martyr themselves in protest Chinese laws? What would that accomplish? I wouldn't be surprised if there were more concessions. Undoubtedly, if by concessions you mean complying with local laws in the countries where the do business. Apple is still the best when it comes to protecting their users in the west I’m sure Apple is also among the best when it comes to protecting their users in China. The problem is that Chinese laws don’t allow for the same level of protection as US laws.
  - fossuser 6y ago
    > "That’s a bad look, but it has nothing to do with privacy, and ultimately has no practical consequences for anybody." I agree that it's not narrowly related to privacy, but it demonstrates that Apple is willing to comply with censorship demands from authoritarian governments. When/if China tries to take Taiwan the systemic suppression of Taiwan's existence and independence to the Chinese people may have played a part in what the public is willing to support. These kinds of things add up and have real effects. > "What would you like Apple to do differently here? Should they martyr themselves in protest Chinese laws? What would that accomplish?" I don't want to rehash my blog post linked above, but I'd argue Apple is responsible for the actions they take. They position themselves in the west as protectors of user privacy (refusing to decrypt iPhones, setting up systems where they can't be compelled to), yet in countries with real authoritarian governments where the people are at serious risk, where Uigers are put in camps and sterilized (https://apnews.com/269b3de1af34e17c1941a514f78d764c https://apnews.com/269b3de1af34e17c1941a514f78d764c) Apple just 'follows local laws'. This is not a principled position. What can they do? I'm not sure, but they can start with not being complicit in the oppressive laws of authoritarian countries. Maybe China has too much leverage with their manufacturing, but Apple has a strong brand and people want their devices. Maybe if they held up their principles then people in China would still try to smuggle the phones in? Maybe it's too much to ask for western companies to support human rights everywhere even when there aren't government sanctions to force them, but I wish they did. It's often in these countries that the people need protection the most.