6 ms·

>It seems futile to resolve each individual's sense of welcome; to provide a safe-space concurrently for religious white nationalists and black trans activists,

by jolux 6y ago

>It seems futile to resolve each individual's sense of welcome; to provide a safe-space concurrently for religious white nationalists and black trans activists, and assorted fringes. That's easy: I don't want to participate in spaces where religious white nationalists feel safe, as don't I suspect a lot of people on HN (most?). Spaces that prioritize making religious white nationalists feel safe are not interesting spaces to participate in in general (check out the front page of Gab (edit: I think I meant Voat) if you need a sense of what I mean). It's also not really about being nice or mean, it's about comments like these suggesting I want preferential treatment from moderators. If my original post wasn't clear: I think the moderators are basically doing the best job that they can at weeding out obviously sexist, racist, and otherwise unproductive comments. So, I'm not really complaining about how the space is moderated, I think it's at a pretty stable equilibrium and I'm pessimistic about it getting much better than this for women, with what it prioritizes (primarily, open discussion about controversial topics, so long as it remains civil, even when one side is expressing repellent views in a civil manner). Obviously, this is not disqualifying for me, because I'm still here, and I have a lot more karma than you. However, in my years of being here, I had never read this piece before, and I frequently feel pretty alone as a woman when there are comments that make me uncomfortable. It is just nice to know that there are other women in the space who share my experience, and I wish there was something like a women HNers social group or something, I guess.

bE9a3S5So8igd3 6y ago
> That's easy: I don't want to participate in spaces where religious white nationalists feel safe, as don't I suspect a lot of people on HN (most?). I agree with that approach (which is why I don't use Twitter). > It's also not really about being nice or mean, it's about comments like these... You've just unintentionally identified the exact problem. You think my response was somehow "sexist" or hostile. I don't. I do think it mostly contains critical thought. If you think my comment should be censored, you've lost all credibility as far as I'm concerned. > ..., and I have a lot more karma than you. (1) This is perhaps one account of 10+ I have made over the years. I don't know how much karma you have because I do not care and won't be clicking through to your account. I also have no idea how much karma I have, totaling all accounts together. I would estimate ~ 100. (2) My relationship with HN (and most of the internet outside of IRC) is almost entirely parasitic; I rarely comment or submit articles to HN. I certainly wouldn't do so specifically in order to increase my karma rating. (3) If you care enough about karma to brag about it, you probably are a terrible contributor to HN anyway.
- jolux 6y ago
  >You've just unintentionally identified the exact problem. You think my response was somehow "sexist" or hostile. I don't. I do think it mostly contains critical thought. If you think my comment should be censored, you've lost all credibility as far as I'm concerned. You'll notice I didn't say any of the things of which you accuse me, nor do I think them (yet). > If you care enough about karma to brag about it, you probably are a terrible contributor to HN anyway. I'm confident about what this situation says about me and my contributions here and feel no need to defend myself further.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
skinkestek 6y ago
> That's easy: I don't want to participate in spaces where religious white nationalists feel safe, As a white, religious person, - but not a nationalist: I always felt safe on HN and I hope most HNers are OK with that as long as I play by the rules? Why shouldn't everyone feel safe as long as they play by the rules? Edit: I'm not hurt. I'm hoping to get a better worded explanation from you :-) Edit 2: The reason why I ask is because sentence is quite absurd and cannot be what you mean. Just try to imagine someone saying: "I don't want to participate in spaces where atheistic colored globalists feel safe," here on HN.
- indigo945 6y ago
  You are arguing in bad faith. Obviously one should be made welcome no matter whether they're white, a nationalist, religious, or all of these, but it should be easy enough to infer from context that this is not what the parent comment was about. It is about making clear that this welcome does not extend toward making other groups feel unwelcome, that is, toward prioritizing that welcome over others.
  - skinkestek 6y ago
    > You are arguing in bad faith. I'm not. I also read and re-read it too. One possible explanation could be that I'm not a native speaker. However if anyone wrote: "I don't want to participate in spaces where atheistic colored globalists feel safe," I'd flag it instantly as I originally did with this before I unflagged it and asked instead because while I think some kind of nazi crap could write that I don't think that is what she means. Edit: also I think it is bad for the conversation to state as fact that I argue in bad faith. If you'd be kind enough to rewrite that I'll also try to remove this edit.
    - jolux 6y ago
      What I meant was that white nationalists feeling safe in a space (particularly them feeling safe expressing white nationalist views) is a decent heuristic for that space being poorly moderated or of poor quality overall. At the very least I’m not interested in the content of that space and I find white nationalists repugnant.
throwgeorge 6y ago
>However, in my years of being here, I had never read this piece before, and I frequently feel pretty alone as a woman when there are comments that make me uncomfortable. It is just nice to know that there are other women in the space who share my experience, and I wish there was something like a women HNers social group or something, I guess. i would like to point out that there are some men that are made uncomfortable by comments that echo masculinity here as well and criticisms from such men never get much traction either. so it'd be nice if there were space (a space or just space) on HN for someone that wishes question the culture and all of the "high-minded" structure. r/twox is a good model - predominantly patronized by women but welcoming of good faith discussion from other genders as well.
- jolux 6y ago
  I didn’t realize r/twox allowed trans women; the name has always made me a bit skeptical because rhetoric about chromosomes is so common amongst transphobes.
  - throwgeorge 6y ago
    i guess you're right it isn't completely transparent but i think they are welcome https://old.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/fe6y66/im_a_trans_woman_do_i_belong_on_this_sub/ https://old.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/fe6y66/im_...
    - jolux 6y ago
      Yeah, I noticed. Unfortunate early choice of name.
dang 6y ago
FWIW, I don't read any of your comments as wanting preferential treatment from moderators. Edit (sorry, got interrupted while writing this) - and I particularly appreciate the even keel of your comments in this thread, when it would be so easy to get thrown off balance by the sharp elbows of others. It's clear that you've worked at developing a reflective rather than reflexive style [1]. I wish we could convince/teach more users to do this. I also agree that there is an issue with this place coming across as unwelcoming in a number of important respects, including (the topic of this thread) to women. My sense is that it has been changing, but slowly. If you have any ideas about how to encourage that, I'd love to hear them. [1] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20reflective%20reflex&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
- jolux 6y ago
  @tptacek and I discussed this a bit downthread. I’m not an expert in community moderation and I’ve seen a lot of them go from decent to terrible very quick, so I know roughly how much effort it takes to prevent that. I do think it’s improving, and I think slow is the only way it ever improves. I think a lot of women see terrible stuff come up here either in comments or on the front page and assume (wrongly) that the community as a whole is ok with it, before it ends up flagkilled by everyone else and often you will come into the thread and warn them if it’s particularly bad. I know I’ve had a good few “why the FUCK is this garbage on the front page” reactions over the years, but those submissions inevitably end up flagged too. I do recall being warned by you for responding in kind to somebody writing inflammatory stuff or acting in bad faith, and this is a reaction I have had to learn to control as a result. That doesn’t feel great, because in the moment it feels like being scolded for hitting back from a position of less power, and this happens a lot to minorities in tech. However, over time I’ve learned that there’s a discursive norm against flamey stuff in general, and that this norm prevents the conversation from being drowned in pile-ons about one person’s bad behavior, which of course ends up Streisanding bad comments too. HN seems like one of the few places where “don’t feed the troll” is actually sensible advice, because there is sufficient enforcement against trolls (community based and explicit moderation) that they aren’t allowed to fester and multiply. I think a lot of women are jaded and burnt out from having to deal with ugly comments and bad actors in less-well-moderated areas of the web where the community sentiment is actually against us participating. I know it was really difficult for me to learn to set aside my gut reaction and ignore the ugly bits, but I did it because I believed it would be ultimately worth it. It’s a question of trust, right? People have to trust that this space is actually different, that misogynistic pot-stirring and verbal abuse aren’t actually welcome, and that they will be treated as equals. These are depressingly common and even quotidian almost everywhere else, which is I think what builds the reputation.

by jolux 6y ago

bE9a3S5So8igd3 6y ago

> That's easy: I don't want to participate in spaces where religious white nationalists feel safe, as don't I suspect a lot of people on HN (most?). I agree with that approach (which is why I don't use Twitter). > It's also not really about being nice or mean, it's about comments like these... You've just unintentionally identified the exact problem. You think my response was somehow "sexist" or hostile. I don't. I do think it mostly contains critical thought. If you think my comment should be censored, you've lost all credibility as far as I'm concerned. > ..., and I have a lot more karma than you. (1) This is perhaps one account of 10+ I have made over the years. I don't know how much karma you have because I do not care and won't be clicking through to your account. I also have no idea how much karma I have, totaling all accounts together. I would estimate ~ 100. (2) My relationship with HN (and most of the internet outside of IRC) is almost entirely parasitic; I rarely comment or submit articles to HN. I certainly wouldn't do so specifically in order to increase my karma rating. (3) If you care enough about karma to brag about it, you probably are a terrible contributor to HN anyway.

jolux 6y ago
>You've just unintentionally identified the exact problem. You think my response was somehow "sexist" or hostile. I don't. I do think it mostly contains critical thought. If you think my comment should be censored, you've lost all credibility as far as I'm concerned. You'll notice I didn't say any of the things of which you accuse me, nor do I think them (yet). > If you care enough about karma to brag about it, you probably are a terrible contributor to HN anyway. I'm confident about what this situation says about me and my contributions here and feel no need to defend myself further.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

skinkestek 6y ago

> That's easy: I don't want to participate in spaces where religious white nationalists feel safe, As a white, religious person, - but not a nationalist: I always felt safe on HN and I hope most HNers are OK with that as long as I play by the rules? Why shouldn't everyone feel safe as long as they play by the rules? Edit: I'm not hurt. I'm hoping to get a better worded explanation from you :-) Edit 2: The reason why I ask is because sentence is quite absurd and cannot be what you mean. Just try to imagine someone saying: "I don't want to participate in spaces where atheistic colored globalists feel safe," here on HN.

indigo945 6y ago
You are arguing in bad faith. Obviously one should be made welcome no matter whether they're white, a nationalist, religious, or all of these, but it should be easy enough to infer from context that this is not what the parent comment was about. It is about making clear that this welcome does not extend toward making other groups feel unwelcome, that is, toward prioritizing that welcome over others.
- skinkestek 6y ago
  > You are arguing in bad faith. I'm not. I also read and re-read it too. One possible explanation could be that I'm not a native speaker. However if anyone wrote: "I don't want to participate in spaces where atheistic colored globalists feel safe," I'd flag it instantly as I originally did with this before I unflagged it and asked instead because while I think some kind of nazi crap could write that I don't think that is what she means. Edit: also I think it is bad for the conversation to state as fact that I argue in bad faith. If you'd be kind enough to rewrite that I'll also try to remove this edit.
  - jolux 6y ago
    What I meant was that white nationalists feeling safe in a space (particularly them feeling safe expressing white nationalist views) is a decent heuristic for that space being poorly moderated or of poor quality overall. At the very least I’m not interested in the content of that space and I find white nationalists repugnant.

throwgeorge 6y ago

>However, in my years of being here, I had never read this piece before, and I frequently feel pretty alone as a woman when there are comments that make me uncomfortable. It is just nice to know that there are other women in the space who share my experience, and I wish there was something like a women HNers social group or something, I guess. i would like to point out that there are some men that are made uncomfortable by comments that echo masculinity here as well and criticisms from such men never get much traction either. so it'd be nice if there were space (a space or just space) on HN for someone that wishes question the culture and all of the "high-minded" structure. r/twox is a good model - predominantly patronized by women but welcoming of good faith discussion from other genders as well.

jolux 6y ago
I didn’t realize r/twox allowed trans women; the name has always made me a bit skeptical because rhetoric about chromosomes is so common amongst transphobes.
- throwgeorge 6y ago
  i guess you're right it isn't completely transparent but i think they are welcome https://old.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/fe6y66/im_a_trans_woman_do_i_belong_on_this_sub/ https://old.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/fe6y66/im_...
  - jolux 6y ago
    Yeah, I noticed. Unfortunate early choice of name.

dang 6y ago

FWIW, I don't read any of your comments as wanting preferential treatment from moderators. Edit (sorry, got interrupted while writing this) - and I particularly appreciate the even keel of your comments in this thread, when it would be so easy to get thrown off balance by the sharp elbows of others. It's clear that you've worked at developing a reflective rather than reflexive style [1]. I wish we could convince/teach more users to do this. I also agree that there is an issue with this place coming across as unwelcoming in a number of important respects, including (the topic of this thread) to women. My sense is that it has been changing, but slowly. If you have any ideas about how to encourage that, I'd love to hear them. [1] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20reflective%20reflex&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

jolux 6y ago
@tptacek and I discussed this a bit downthread. I’m not an expert in community moderation and I’ve seen a lot of them go from decent to terrible very quick, so I know roughly how much effort it takes to prevent that. I do think it’s improving, and I think slow is the only way it ever improves. I think a lot of women see terrible stuff come up here either in comments or on the front page and assume (wrongly) that the community as a whole is ok with it, before it ends up flagkilled by everyone else and often you will come into the thread and warn them if it’s particularly bad. I know I’ve had a good few “why the FUCK is this garbage on the front page” reactions over the years, but those submissions inevitably end up flagged too. I do recall being warned by you for responding in kind to somebody writing inflammatory stuff or acting in bad faith, and this is a reaction I have had to learn to control as a result. That doesn’t feel great, because in the moment it feels like being scolded for hitting back from a position of less power, and this happens a lot to minorities in tech. However, over time I’ve learned that there’s a discursive norm against flamey stuff in general, and that this norm prevents the conversation from being drowned in pile-ons about one person’s bad behavior, which of course ends up Streisanding bad comments too. HN seems like one of the few places where “don’t feed the troll” is actually sensible advice, because there is sufficient enforcement against trolls (community based and explicit moderation) that they aren’t allowed to fester and multiply. I think a lot of women are jaded and burnt out from having to deal with ugly comments and bad actors in less-well-moderated areas of the web where the community sentiment is actually against us participating. I know it was really difficult for me to learn to set aside my gut reaction and ignore the ugly bits, but I did it because I believed it would be ultimately worth it. It’s a question of trust, right? People have to trust that this space is actually different, that misogynistic pot-stirring and verbal abuse aren’t actually welcome, and that they will be treated as equals. These are depressingly common and even quotidian almost everywhere else, which is I think what builds the reputation.