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Lisp(and specifically common lisp) is one of the top languages people who don't know it like to criticize. That wouldn't be a bad thing if the criticism was any

Lisp(and specifically common lisp) is one of the top languages people who don't know it like to criticize. That wouldn't be a bad thing if the criticism was any good. Every time i see a blog post about some "problem" with lisp the chances that it has something valuable to say are low. And calling a language community a cult is beyond offensive.

dexen 16y ago
I want to both upvote you (`` the chances that it has something valuable to say are low'') and downvote (``is beyond offensive'') at the same time. See, his arguments about Lisp community being a cult stand. Yours are purely emotional. Now we could agree that there is a very good reason to be cultic about Lisp -- it is the best thing since the sliced bread etc. etc. and people should just use it -- but that's another matter. In a way, he pre-empted your reaction with ``If such jokes reliably meet with stifling social disapproval, it's a cult.'' ;-)
- pavelludiq 16y ago
  Taking yourself too seriously and being in a cult are two very different things. I agree that _some_ lisp people(even me at times) do in fact take lisp a tad too seriously, but i can't see how that makes you into a dangerous religious nut. P.S. Im starting my own lisp cult, called the cult of the mythical lisp cult, our goal will be to find the holly grail of programming language flame wars: evidence of the mythical lisp cult. See, a joke about lisp, and its recursive too :D
- gnosis 16y ago
  I absolutely love Lisp, but I'm not in the least bit offended at someone describing some aspects of the culture as cultish. But the thing is.. the very same thing could be said of most other language enthusiasts. Look at all the endless hype from Python and Ruby fans (especially when they compare their favorite language to Perl). Or look at some OCaml or Haskell fanboys and their attitude that static typing is The True Way and only ignorant savages would prefer a dynamically typed language. And this doesn't even touch on the vi vs Emacs holy wars. There's plenty of fanboyishness, exclusivity, and and chastisement of outsiders in many computer fields. And I dare say it's not really limited to computers either. I'm not sure if "cultish" is really the most appropriate term, but I feel no offense at it. The whole discussion reminds me of these images: http://www.deimeke.net/dirk/blog/uploads/G7WyP.gif http://www.deimeke.net/dirk/blog/uploads/G7WyP.gif http://www.rubyinside.com/holiday-fun-how-programming-language-fanboys-see-each-others-languages-2911.html http://www.rubyinside.com/holiday-fun-how-programming-langua...
  - fxj 16y ago
    don't get me wrong, i like lisp a lot. but i think lisp has a bad image because many lispers (not all) are nitpickers. lisper think they are cool, but they are not. they don't let anything new in their language. they stick to s-expressions like they are the holy grail. they stick to the funny function names as if they were given by god. they are the most conservative language community (maybe apart from COBOL). look at all the disregard they had for arc. this could have been a beginning to dust off the fossil language and remove all the warts. but they did not like it. instead lisp is still the language that it was 50 years ago. <\rant>
    - dexen 16y ago
      > instead lisp is still the language that it was 50 years ago. I beg you to differ. The original, McCarthy Lisp was a succinct, powerful, flexible, dynamic language based on a small set of axioms. Through times, a lot has been thrown out for sake of performance (which was understood to require compilation). Um, well, in case of Lisp, it means a lot of cruft has been added (some say, bolted onto) -- the simplicity etc.etc. was lost. Those days functions aren't even lists anymore, and scoping is lexical! With a few notable exceptions. Which are either hold-outs, or back-to-the-roots/back-to-what-worked-better efforts. Arc is closer to the original Lisp. Also, is more pleasing to use. Not a coincidence.
      - pavelludiq 16y ago
        People keep saying that but i don't get it. Can you give me an example of the cruft you are talking about? Its one of those other myths i keep hearing about our cult. p.s. Arc is more pleasing to use to you, I would certainly not choose it over common lisp or clojure, but maybe over scheme.
    - ldh 16y ago
      The existence of Clojure begs to differ.
      - fxj 16y ago
rbanffy 16y ago
> And calling a language community a cult is beyond offensive. If we look closely, Lisp criticism is a kind of a cult too. - Criticizing Lisp among them brings social validation - They make lots of jokes about Lisp, but none about Lisp criticism - Praising Lisp brings social exclusion Therefore, Lisp critics are part of a cult. Like many others, they dislike what they don't understand.
- ldh 16y ago
  Agreed. A rule of thumb I find useful: Any criticism of Lisp which opens with a joke about parentheses is quite likely to be flimsy and ill-informed.

dexen 16y ago

I want to both upvote you (`` the chances that it has something valuable to say are low'') and downvote (``is beyond offensive'') at the same time. See, his arguments about Lisp community being a cult stand. Yours are purely emotional. Now we could agree that there is a very good reason to be cultic about Lisp -- it is the best thing since the sliced bread etc. etc. and people should just use it -- but that's another matter. In a way, he pre-empted your reaction with ``If such jokes reliably meet with stifling social disapproval, it's a cult.'' ;-)

pavelludiq 16y ago
Taking yourself too seriously and being in a cult are two very different things. I agree that _some_ lisp people(even me at times) do in fact take lisp a tad too seriously, but i can't see how that makes you into a dangerous religious nut. P.S. Im starting my own lisp cult, called the cult of the mythical lisp cult, our goal will be to find the holly grail of programming language flame wars: evidence of the mythical lisp cult. See, a joke about lisp, and its recursive too :D
gnosis 16y ago
I absolutely love Lisp, but I'm not in the least bit offended at someone describing some aspects of the culture as cultish. But the thing is.. the very same thing could be said of most other language enthusiasts. Look at all the endless hype from Python and Ruby fans (especially when they compare their favorite language to Perl). Or look at some OCaml or Haskell fanboys and their attitude that static typing is The True Way and only ignorant savages would prefer a dynamically typed language. And this doesn't even touch on the vi vs Emacs holy wars. There's plenty of fanboyishness, exclusivity, and and chastisement of outsiders in many computer fields. And I dare say it's not really limited to computers either. I'm not sure if "cultish" is really the most appropriate term, but I feel no offense at it. The whole discussion reminds me of these images: http://www.deimeke.net/dirk/blog/uploads/G7WyP.gif http://www.deimeke.net/dirk/blog/uploads/G7WyP.gif http://www.rubyinside.com/holiday-fun-how-programming-language-fanboys-see-each-others-languages-2911.html http://www.rubyinside.com/holiday-fun-how-programming-langua...
- fxj 16y ago
  don't get me wrong, i like lisp a lot. but i think lisp has a bad image because many lispers (not all) are nitpickers. lisper think they are cool, but they are not. they don't let anything new in their language. they stick to s-expressions like they are the holy grail. they stick to the funny function names as if they were given by god. they are the most conservative language community (maybe apart from COBOL). look at all the disregard they had for arc. this could have been a beginning to dust off the fossil language and remove all the warts. but they did not like it. instead lisp is still the language that it was 50 years ago. <\rant>
  - dexen 16y ago
    > instead lisp is still the language that it was 50 years ago. I beg you to differ. The original, McCarthy Lisp was a succinct, powerful, flexible, dynamic language based on a small set of axioms. Through times, a lot has been thrown out for sake of performance (which was understood to require compilation). Um, well, in case of Lisp, it means a lot of cruft has been added (some say, bolted onto) -- the simplicity etc.etc. was lost. Those days functions aren't even lists anymore, and scoping is lexical! With a few notable exceptions. Which are either hold-outs, or back-to-the-roots/back-to-what-worked-better efforts. Arc is closer to the original Lisp. Also, is more pleasing to use. Not a coincidence.
    - pavelludiq 16y ago
      People keep saying that but i don't get it. Can you give me an example of the cruft you are talking about? Its one of those other myths i keep hearing about our cult. p.s. Arc is more pleasing to use to you, I would certainly not choose it over common lisp or clojure, but maybe over scheme.
  - ldh 16y ago
    The existence of Clojure begs to differ.
    - fxj 16y ago

rbanffy 16y ago

> And calling a language community a cult is beyond offensive. If we look closely, Lisp criticism is a kind of a cult too. - Criticizing Lisp among them brings social validation - They make lots of jokes about Lisp, but none about Lisp criticism - Praising Lisp brings social exclusion Therefore, Lisp critics are part of a cult. Like many others, they dislike what they don't understand.

ldh 16y ago
Agreed. A rule of thumb I find useful: Any criticism of Lisp which opens with a joke about parentheses is quite likely to be flimsy and ill-informed.