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I found this out the hard way (that the social status of computer scientists outside of the Valley is nearly zero) in my late twenties, when I was starting to l

I found this out the hard way (that the social status of computer scientists outside of the Valley is nearly zero) in my late twenties, when I was starting to look to get married. I'm now changing careers. I realized that women (and society in general) cared absolutely zero about my profession except for the fact that it made good money. Even if you do become obscenely wealthy, you rarely garner any real respect in mature society -- you are viewed only slightly above oil princes and gold-laden rappers -- rich people with no taste. That's really unfortunate because computer science is such an intellectually stimulating profession, but that is not how people see it. [Spoiler Alert] There's a great scene at the end of Silicon Valley's last episode where Gavin Belson, the failed tech CEO, leaves tech to become a more artsy-fartsy writer with a passion for the arts. Only then does he actually start to be noticed by organizations outside the Valley. Even the stars of the show, Richard Hendricks and gang fade into obscurity at the end of their startup journey - not even future generations of tech people have heard about Pied Piper. I think that is a brilliant portrayal of the reality of most people in tech - they have almost zero historical significance, ride on the waves of economic cycles, and even if they are obscenely rich (like Bezos), they just don't matter to progression of human culture. Even Elon Musk gets much less respect outside of technocrat circles than we think. On the other hand, everyone respects the like of Margaret Atwood, JK Rowling, or Barack Obama.

buboard 6y ago
Musk is a physicist though, and i m pretty sure Musk is a frequent subject even when politicians speak. They have not reached out to the public in ways that Rowling or Obama have, so it's natural that the public feels them distant. Bill gates earns some respect for his low-key activism but he s not too prominent either. Scientists who reach out can garner respect, Thatcher was a Chemist, Merkel is a physicist. It's true however that the non-rich comp.scientists are virtually unknown or known for unrelated reasons (e.g. Turing). A lot of it is just grooming: Lawyers (and doctors) are groomed and almost expected to have socially prominent aspirations. Programmers have not but it's not like they really asked for it, most tend(ed) to be politically aloof.
- thu2111 6y ago
  Musk isn't a physicist. He's a programmer who retrained as a rocket engine specialist and business leader. Rockets involve physics but only in the sense that computers involve physics, they're applications of fairly basic physical theories. I mean, he's not doing string theory in his corporate offices. Angela Merkel is also not a physicist. She studied physics and then published a few papers in 'quantum chemistry' but for basically her whole adult life she's been in politics. She's as close to a professional politician as you'll find. I know it wasn't you but Rowling and Obama are odd picks for high status individuals. Rowling is well known but is currently having her reputation blown up and being stabbed in the back by the starlets she birthed, because she's not on board with "people can pick their own gender at will". Obama was high status when he was POTUS; where is he now? Does anyone know what he's up to these days? It's not Obama himself that had high status but the position. In my experience Musk gets a lot of respect. I know a totally non-technical financial CEO who always cites Musk as his inspiration. The guy even likes to see himself as kind of like Musk which is hilarious to me, as he is slightly more likely to be struck by lightning than sit down with a pile of textbooks to learn a new technical skill. That's just not who he is.
  - thelopa 6y ago
    > Rowling is well known but is currently having her reputation blown up and being stabbed in the back by the starlets she birthed, because she's not on board with "people can pick their own gender at will". Wow. So much to unpack here. I’m getting the impression that you sympathize with Rowling’s views. I’m a little more immersed in trans issues than most on HN, so let me assure you that Rowling is flat out wrong. For example, in her essay she alluded to (but didn’t cite) studies that have been discredited. A lot of her central points are easily dismantled when faced with reality. Her arguments are only convincing if you aren’t familiar with the issues. You also echoed the idea that trans people casually picked their gender. If you ever talked to a trans person I’m sure you’d realize just how wrong that idea is. All the trans people I know report feeling like they had little choice. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve head trans people say things like “I would give anything to be a cis X”. By portraying it as a casual choice you’re belittling the daily struggle trans people endure. It’s not “just a choice” if transitioning is the only way to suppress suicidal urges, and suicide is rampant among trans people. The 2015 survey found that 41% of trans people had attempted suicide during their life. The percentage of people who had considered it was MUCH higher, but I don’t remember the exact number. It’s not a choice when your options are live or die. I’m speaking not only from the experience of participating in trans groups, but also as a trans person myself.
neutronicus 6y ago
Programmers have a bad reputation with Feminists. Hanging out in any online Feminist space is very illuminating - they have gone on many dates with people who do what we do, and they're contemptuously familiar with "us" as a class. If you're trying to date in a tech city, I think you pretty much have to do this - there are a lot of "tech bro" memes out there for you to step in on the first date. This prejudice seems largely absent from health-care workers, for what it's worth. (Nurses and nurse-adjacent professionals seem to think of doctors as much bigger jerks and sexists than programmers, whereas I think a lot of creative professionals now view programmers and various kinds of scientist / engineer as pretty much the ur-sexist-jerk).
- cloudier 6y ago
  I mean, it’s not hard to see why feminists think that: just read any thread on Hacker News about gender.
- JSavageOne 6y ago
  What did the programmers commonly do that these females found revolting? I've never lived in SF so maybe it's different there, but in my experience in the industry the "tech bro" thing is a complete myth. Most software engineers are just quiet nerds/geeks, mostly Asian + Indian, and are the absolute last thing from being "bros" (unless the word "bro" has been redefined and I never got the memo).
  - automatoney 6y ago
    I'd say it's definitely very possible to be a quiet nerd who also has not the best attitude towards women so I don't think the bad rep just comes from the "bro" side of things. As an aside, calling women 'females' is definitely something that can set off alarms cause it resembles the kind of language that certain sexist men use. Not saying that using it makes someone sexist, but that it can make someone sound like other people who are.
    - JSavageOne 6y ago
      > it's definitely very possible to be a quiet nerd who also has not the best attitude towards women Of course, but that doesn't mean that "sexist quiet software engineer nerd" is a common personality type. In my experience the "quiet nerds" tend to be the most kind people. Also I've found in America that most women seem to prefer dating outgoing men, so I'd guess that most of these women aren't dating these "quiet nerds". > As an aside, calling women 'females' is definitely something that can set off alarms Never realized the word had that connotation to some people. Sounds overly sensitive, but I'll use "women" if that's preferred.
person_of_color 6y ago
What are you going to pivot to?
- ls612 6y ago
  Not the OP but I got a CS undergrad degree and am now in a top economics graduate program. Finance/Consulting is still seen as high status by many.
burntoutfire 6y ago
> On the other hand, everyone respects the like of Margaret Atwood, JK Rowling, or Barack Obama. Caring about what everyone else thinks is a sure way to be miserable in life... The masses in general are poorly informed and understand nearly nothing out of the world that surrounds them, it's no wonder they give more respect to the author of the book that they liked or to an insanely hyped president than to someone who made a big contribution to technological progress. In other words - do good work, but don't expect people to praise you for it. It's perhaps good enough if they don't burn you at the stake...
wolco 6y ago
Popular actors or writers or wrestlers or sport figures are more popular and make more money. But not so popular writer not much respect, no name wrestler even less. Brand is status.
JSavageOne 6y ago
Although I agree with the sentiment here, you picked some pretty extreme examples. OF course a famous author and ex-president is going to have more respect than some anonymous corporate drone at Google. It'd be more weird if that wasn't the case.

buboard 6y ago

Musk is a physicist though, and i m pretty sure Musk is a frequent subject even when politicians speak. They have not reached out to the public in ways that Rowling or Obama have, so it's natural that the public feels them distant. Bill gates earns some respect for his low-key activism but he s not too prominent either. Scientists who reach out can garner respect, Thatcher was a Chemist, Merkel is a physicist. It's true however that the non-rich comp.scientists are virtually unknown or known for unrelated reasons (e.g. Turing). A lot of it is just grooming: Lawyers (and doctors) are groomed and almost expected to have socially prominent aspirations. Programmers have not but it's not like they really asked for it, most tend(ed) to be politically aloof.

thu2111 6y ago
Musk isn't a physicist. He's a programmer who retrained as a rocket engine specialist and business leader. Rockets involve physics but only in the sense that computers involve physics, they're applications of fairly basic physical theories. I mean, he's not doing string theory in his corporate offices. Angela Merkel is also not a physicist. She studied physics and then published a few papers in 'quantum chemistry' but for basically her whole adult life she's been in politics. She's as close to a professional politician as you'll find. I know it wasn't you but Rowling and Obama are odd picks for high status individuals. Rowling is well known but is currently having her reputation blown up and being stabbed in the back by the starlets she birthed, because she's not on board with "people can pick their own gender at will". Obama was high status when he was POTUS; where is he now? Does anyone know what he's up to these days? It's not Obama himself that had high status but the position. In my experience Musk gets a lot of respect. I know a totally non-technical financial CEO who always cites Musk as his inspiration. The guy even likes to see himself as kind of like Musk which is hilarious to me, as he is slightly more likely to be struck by lightning than sit down with a pile of textbooks to learn a new technical skill. That's just not who he is.
- thelopa 6y ago
  > Rowling is well known but is currently having her reputation blown up and being stabbed in the back by the starlets she birthed, because she's not on board with "people can pick their own gender at will". Wow. So much to unpack here. I’m getting the impression that you sympathize with Rowling’s views. I’m a little more immersed in trans issues than most on HN, so let me assure you that Rowling is flat out wrong. For example, in her essay she alluded to (but didn’t cite) studies that have been discredited. A lot of her central points are easily dismantled when faced with reality. Her arguments are only convincing if you aren’t familiar with the issues. You also echoed the idea that trans people casually picked their gender. If you ever talked to a trans person I’m sure you’d realize just how wrong that idea is. All the trans people I know report feeling like they had little choice. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve head trans people say things like “I would give anything to be a cis X”. By portraying it as a casual choice you’re belittling the daily struggle trans people endure. It’s not “just a choice” if transitioning is the only way to suppress suicidal urges, and suicide is rampant among trans people. The 2015 survey found that 41% of trans people had attempted suicide during their life. The percentage of people who had considered it was MUCH higher, but I don’t remember the exact number. It’s not a choice when your options are live or die. I’m speaking not only from the experience of participating in trans groups, but also as a trans person myself.

neutronicus 6y ago

Programmers have a bad reputation with Feminists. Hanging out in any online Feminist space is very illuminating - they have gone on many dates with people who do what we do, and they're contemptuously familiar with "us" as a class. If you're trying to date in a tech city, I think you pretty much have to do this - there are a lot of "tech bro" memes out there for you to step in on the first date. This prejudice seems largely absent from health-care workers, for what it's worth. (Nurses and nurse-adjacent professionals seem to think of doctors as much bigger jerks and sexists than programmers, whereas I think a lot of creative professionals now view programmers and various kinds of scientist / engineer as pretty much the ur-sexist-jerk).

cloudier 6y ago
I mean, it’s not hard to see why feminists think that: just read any thread on Hacker News about gender.
JSavageOne 6y ago
What did the programmers commonly do that these females found revolting? I've never lived in SF so maybe it's different there, but in my experience in the industry the "tech bro" thing is a complete myth. Most software engineers are just quiet nerds/geeks, mostly Asian + Indian, and are the absolute last thing from being "bros" (unless the word "bro" has been redefined and I never got the memo).
- automatoney 6y ago
  I'd say it's definitely very possible to be a quiet nerd who also has not the best attitude towards women so I don't think the bad rep just comes from the "bro" side of things. As an aside, calling women 'females' is definitely something that can set off alarms cause it resembles the kind of language that certain sexist men use. Not saying that using it makes someone sexist, but that it can make someone sound like other people who are.
  - JSavageOne 6y ago
    > it's definitely very possible to be a quiet nerd who also has not the best attitude towards women Of course, but that doesn't mean that "sexist quiet software engineer nerd" is a common personality type. In my experience the "quiet nerds" tend to be the most kind people. Also I've found in America that most women seem to prefer dating outgoing men, so I'd guess that most of these women aren't dating these "quiet nerds". > As an aside, calling women 'females' is definitely something that can set off alarms Never realized the word had that connotation to some people. Sounds overly sensitive, but I'll use "women" if that's preferred.

person_of_color 6y ago

What are you going to pivot to?

ls612 6y ago
Not the OP but I got a CS undergrad degree and am now in a top economics graduate program. Finance/Consulting is still seen as high status by many.

burntoutfire 6y ago

> On the other hand, everyone respects the like of Margaret Atwood, JK Rowling, or Barack Obama. Caring about what everyone else thinks is a sure way to be miserable in life... The masses in general are poorly informed and understand nearly nothing out of the world that surrounds them, it's no wonder they give more respect to the author of the book that they liked or to an insanely hyped president than to someone who made a big contribution to technological progress. In other words - do good work, but don't expect people to praise you for it. It's perhaps good enough if they don't burn you at the stake...

wolco 6y ago

Popular actors or writers or wrestlers or sport figures are more popular and make more money. But not so popular writer not much respect, no name wrestler even less. Brand is status.

JSavageOne 6y ago

Although I agree with the sentiment here, you picked some pretty extreme examples. OF course a famous author and ex-president is going to have more respect than some anonymous corporate drone at Google. It'd be more weird if that wasn't the case.