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Caveat: I think it’s valuable to avoid creating threads that devolve into flame wars over gender politics, and largely respect the decision of moderators to fla

by jolux 6y ago

Caveat: I think it’s valuable to avoid creating threads that devolve into flame wars over gender politics, and largely respect the decision of moderators to flag these articles as a result. However, I’m a woman, 21 years old, and I’ve been a Hacker News member since 2014 and a reader for much longer (perhaps since I was 11 or 12?). I passed 500 karma years ago. I lament that I cannot easily connect with other women over our use of this medium, because this article alone gave me a lot of valuable advice and more things like it would definitely help me feel more welcome in the community. It’s a complicated situation and I think dang and sctb have done a laudable job of splitting the difference in this space over the years, one that more internet moderators of tech spaces that want women to participate would do well to emulate.

bE9a3S5So8igd3 6y ago
I don't really understand what "welcome" means. Historically on the internet people are simultaneously "welcome" and "not welcome," i.e. people discover places of socializing and choose to participate or not. In my decades of socializing on the internet, most places are hostile to some degree. I also wouldn't bother to complain, because hostility is an unavoidable part of human nature, even hostility toward hostility. Some set of people within a given community will be "nice," and some will be "mean." Most people inhabit some indefinite point on the nice-mean continuum. It would be ideal if comments like "females suk lol" were removed, but something tells me that's uncommon. I think that "I would feel more welcome if..." (a very common motif in modern activism) suggests a few things: (1) The operators should care about me/my demographic (2) The operators should signal that they care about me/my demographic (3) The operators should preferentially signal that they care about me/my demographic (4) The operators should counter-signal, i.e. counter-welcome other people/other demographics (determined by perceived opposition to me/my demographic) This may seem like a trivial exercise, but consider how non-welcome a person with conservative political interests would be not only on HN, but in the tech industry as a whole. Consider how non-welcome a white male might feel on Twitter, etc.. Hell, consider how non-welcome a person who thinks Rust sucks would feel on news.ycombinator.com. (tip: very non-welcome) It seems futile to resolve each individual's sense of welcome; to provide a safe-space concurrently for religious white nationalists and black trans activists, and assorted fringes.
- zzzcpan 6y ago
  > Hell, consider how non-welcome a person who thinks Rust sucks would feel on news.ycombinator.com. (tip: very non-welcome) That would be me. I literally got shadowbanned for criticizing Rust when I first became a member on HN. But I don't feel unwelcome by HN, only by mods, who I don't think of highly anyway, as this pushed me to pay attention to what mods actually do over the years. Nowadays they punish my account again, at least they didn't ban it this time, presumably this time it was because of my opinion on something corporate capitalist they didn't like. > It seems futile to resolve each individual's sense of welcome; to provide a safe-space concurrently for religious white nationalists and black trans activists, and assorted fringes. No matter how fringe, if mods allow, people will still be able to defend and express their opinions here, so only mods can make them feel unwelcome here.
  - dang 6y ago
    > I literally got shadowbanned for criticizing Rust when I first became a member on HN. That can't be true. We couldn't care less whether people criticize Rust.
    - pmiller2 6y ago
      I've seen accounts with green usernames that seem to have been shadowbanned for less. Typically, it's a new account that says some reasonable things, and maybe one or two fairly unreasonable things. Getting flagged for the unreasonable things can really kill a brand new account with under 10 karma.
      - dang 6y ago
        "Seem to have been shadowbanned for less" than...criticizing Rust? come on you guys. That's not even close. Perhaps you saw an account that was affected by a software filter, especially if it's new. We try to review the affected posts and immunize legit accounts against the software, but we miss some. > Typically, it's a new account that says some reasonable things, and maybe one or two fairly unreasonable things. Accounts get banned for the worst things they do, not the best. If one day I go get groceries, walk the dog, and set somebody's house on fire, "the majority of things I did were reasonable" is not much of a defense. It's hard to speak in the general case though. People routinely overinterpret what they see based on what they assume is happening. If you haven't specifically asked and we haven't specifically answered, the explanation is probably wrong. It's not hard to get an answer if you try.
dang 6y ago
Moderators didn't flag this article. Users did. If you see [flagged] on a story, that always means user flags. We didn't see it until someone pointed it out to me just now, and I'm just taking a look now.
- jolux 6y ago
  Apologies, I didn't mean to imply that you had flagged the article, and I didn't think that you had in this instance. Thanks for clarifying what [flagged] means, I was unsure about this.
curation 6y ago
Your engagement with this article here makes me see that we are in a new sort of space for these discussions. And I really appreciate the moderator too. I am 47 and it's been a lonely, long haul. Thank you.

by jolux 6y ago

bE9a3S5So8igd3 6y ago

I don't really understand what "welcome" means. Historically on the internet people are simultaneously "welcome" and "not welcome," i.e. people discover places of socializing and choose to participate or not. In my decades of socializing on the internet, most places are hostile to some degree. I also wouldn't bother to complain, because hostility is an unavoidable part of human nature, even hostility toward hostility. Some set of people within a given community will be "nice," and some will be "mean." Most people inhabit some indefinite point on the nice-mean continuum. It would be ideal if comments like "females suk lol" were removed, but something tells me that's uncommon. I think that "I would feel more welcome if..." (a very common motif in modern activism) suggests a few things: (1) The operators should care about me/my demographic (2) The operators should signal that they care about me/my demographic (3) The operators should preferentially signal that they care about me/my demographic (4) The operators should counter-signal, i.e. counter-welcome other people/other demographics (determined by perceived opposition to me/my demographic) This may seem like a trivial exercise, but consider how non-welcome a person with conservative political interests would be not only on HN, but in the tech industry as a whole. Consider how non-welcome a white male might feel on Twitter, etc.. Hell, consider how non-welcome a person who thinks Rust sucks would feel on news.ycombinator.com. (tip: very non-welcome) It seems futile to resolve each individual's sense of welcome; to provide a safe-space concurrently for religious white nationalists and black trans activists, and assorted fringes.

zzzcpan 6y ago
> Hell, consider how non-welcome a person who thinks Rust sucks would feel on news.ycombinator.com. (tip: very non-welcome) That would be me. I literally got shadowbanned for criticizing Rust when I first became a member on HN. But I don't feel unwelcome by HN, only by mods, who I don't think of highly anyway, as this pushed me to pay attention to what mods actually do over the years. Nowadays they punish my account again, at least they didn't ban it this time, presumably this time it was because of my opinion on something corporate capitalist they didn't like. > It seems futile to resolve each individual's sense of welcome; to provide a safe-space concurrently for religious white nationalists and black trans activists, and assorted fringes. No matter how fringe, if mods allow, people will still be able to defend and express their opinions here, so only mods can make them feel unwelcome here.
- dang 6y ago
  > I literally got shadowbanned for criticizing Rust when I first became a member on HN. That can't be true. We couldn't care less whether people criticize Rust.
  - pmiller2 6y ago
    I've seen accounts with green usernames that seem to have been shadowbanned for less. Typically, it's a new account that says some reasonable things, and maybe one or two fairly unreasonable things. Getting flagged for the unreasonable things can really kill a brand new account with under 10 karma.
    - dang 6y ago
      "Seem to have been shadowbanned for less" than...criticizing Rust? come on you guys. That's not even close. Perhaps you saw an account that was affected by a software filter, especially if it's new. We try to review the affected posts and immunize legit accounts against the software, but we miss some. > Typically, it's a new account that says some reasonable things, and maybe one or two fairly unreasonable things. Accounts get banned for the worst things they do, not the best. If one day I go get groceries, walk the dog, and set somebody's house on fire, "the majority of things I did were reasonable" is not much of a defense. It's hard to speak in the general case though. People routinely overinterpret what they see based on what they assume is happening. If you haven't specifically asked and we haven't specifically answered, the explanation is probably wrong. It's not hard to get an answer if you try.

dang 6y ago

Moderators didn't flag this article. Users did. If you see [flagged] on a story, that always means user flags. We didn't see it until someone pointed it out to me just now, and I'm just taking a look now.

jolux 6y ago
Apologies, I didn't mean to imply that you had flagged the article, and I didn't think that you had in this instance. Thanks for clarifying what [flagged] means, I was unsure about this.

curation 6y ago

Your engagement with this article here makes me see that we are in a new sort of space for these discussions. And I really appreciate the moderator too. I am 47 and it's been a lonely, long haul. Thank you.