4 ms·

Could this actually be good, or at least quite understandable? (I'm not actually sure whether you intend your comment to just be descriptive, or also judgementa

Could this actually be good, or at least quite understandable? (I'm not actually sure whether you intend your comment to just be descriptive, or also judgemental.) Does anyone expect college music programs to be easily accessible to people who didn't play an instrument, or sing in a choir, during high school? Similarly for dance, and drama, and art. And if you're right that mechanical engineering schools no longer expect students to have been tinkering around in their spare time previously, is that actually good? At one time, there was good reason to not assume that incoming students had any programming experience, since many of them wouldn't have had access to computers, and so would not have had the opportunity to develop computer skills, or even to know whether they were interested in computers. But today in western countries, for any but seriously impoverished kids (or I suppose, those with mis-guided parents), that is no longer true. There remains the possibility that a toxic culture in high school has prevented some students from realizing that they are interested in computers at that point in their lives, and therefore some remedial action in college is necessary. But fixing the toxic high school environment would be preferable.

ghaff 6y ago
It's a bit of both. For the most part, we encourage students to explore new interests and even set themselves onto a completely different track in college. And, for the most part, STEM majors assume nothing beyond interest, aptitude(?), and standard HS coursework. At the same time, I agree that programming (if not necessarily CS) has a sufficiently low barrier to entry these days that some exposure prior to settling on a CS degree seems like a reasonable expectation, especially at more elite schools. ADDED: >And if you're right that mechanical engineering schools no longer expect students to have been tinkering around in their spare time previously, is that actually good? Certainly when I went to school, there was no expectation of any real prior exposure to STEM in hobby form or otherwise outside of high school courseware.
chosenbreed37 6y ago
You're right in that music programs demand a minimum level of proficiency with the chosen musical instrument. Many (if not all) have auditions as well. I would say the programming is a bit different. It is true that someone who has been working computers before they start college is likely to do better in the programming assignments. I suspect in many cases they'll be bored. They might finish in 30 minutes what others would do in 3 hours. It's a gap but in the grand scheme of things it's not that significant. Now look at someone who has been taking violin lessons and exams for 8 years compared to someone who has never touched. The gap is huge. Perhaps of greater importance is the synaptic pathways that have been developed in the musicians brain coupled with the muscle memory and intuition developed over a prolonged period of time. I'm not saying that the programming knowledge acquired before college is worthless but that much of it can be acquired by new comers into the field over a relatively short period of time. As to the toxicity of the high school environment I wouldn't be able to say. At college I certainly encountered the "nerd" times. As far as I remember they were not toxic at all. If anything many were either shy or generally awkward in social settings. Otherwise they were great to hang out with.
- ghaff 6y ago
  I think that's all fair. Although I also suspect that those of us who have been programming at least casually--even if not professionally--for years may minimize the challenges of learning to program and generally understand how computers work on the side while also tackling a challenging CS curriculum. But, yes, I'm pretty sure that making up for not having hacked around with Python code in high school is a way lower bar than making up for never having taken piano or violin lessons.
gedy 6y ago
> "There remains the possibility that a toxic culture in high school has prevented some students from realizing that they are interested in computers" I take some issue if the characterization is "the nerds" are the toxic ones here. It's been a while, but the high school culture was overall toxic if you were not attractive and popular, and computer geek types were frequently targets for their interests. Young women were as bad as the males in the shunning.
- radford-neal 6y ago
  I didn't mean to imply that the "nerds", or any of the students, were "toxic". It's the culture. Probably starting with the whole concept of segregating teenagers from the rest of society.
  - gedy 6y ago
    Thanks, agreed
  - burntoutfire 6y ago
    Interestingly, there was almost no bullying in my high school in Poland in the nineties. I think school bullying may be a product of Anglo-Saxxon culture, which is very individualistic, success oriented (i.e. if you're a "loser" you're barely a human being) and also kind of heartless. Currently, as Poland converges to the standard of global culture emanating from the US, there are reports of some cases of bullying, but still I don't think it's the everyday reality of each school.
    - jcranmer 6y ago
      > I think school bullying may be a product of Anglo-Saxxon culture, which is very individualistic, success oriented (i.e. if you're a "loser" you're barely a human being) and also kind of heartless. That is rather refuted by the rather notorious bullying in Japan, which is about as far away from individualistic culture as you can get.
    - orthoxerox 6y ago

ghaff 6y ago

It's a bit of both. For the most part, we encourage students to explore new interests and even set themselves onto a completely different track in college. And, for the most part, STEM majors assume nothing beyond interest, aptitude(?), and standard HS coursework. At the same time, I agree that programming (if not necessarily CS) has a sufficiently low barrier to entry these days that some exposure prior to settling on a CS degree seems like a reasonable expectation, especially at more elite schools. ADDED: >And if you're right that mechanical engineering schools no longer expect students to have been tinkering around in their spare time previously, is that actually good? Certainly when I went to school, there was no expectation of any real prior exposure to STEM in hobby form or otherwise outside of high school courseware.

chosenbreed37 6y ago

You're right in that music programs demand a minimum level of proficiency with the chosen musical instrument. Many (if not all) have auditions as well. I would say the programming is a bit different. It is true that someone who has been working computers before they start college is likely to do better in the programming assignments. I suspect in many cases they'll be bored. They might finish in 30 minutes what others would do in 3 hours. It's a gap but in the grand scheme of things it's not that significant. Now look at someone who has been taking violin lessons and exams for 8 years compared to someone who has never touched. The gap is huge. Perhaps of greater importance is the synaptic pathways that have been developed in the musicians brain coupled with the muscle memory and intuition developed over a prolonged period of time. I'm not saying that the programming knowledge acquired before college is worthless but that much of it can be acquired by new comers into the field over a relatively short period of time. As to the toxicity of the high school environment I wouldn't be able to say. At college I certainly encountered the "nerd" times. As far as I remember they were not toxic at all. If anything many were either shy or generally awkward in social settings. Otherwise they were great to hang out with.

ghaff 6y ago
I think that's all fair. Although I also suspect that those of us who have been programming at least casually--even if not professionally--for years may minimize the challenges of learning to program and generally understand how computers work on the side while also tackling a challenging CS curriculum. But, yes, I'm pretty sure that making up for not having hacked around with Python code in high school is a way lower bar than making up for never having taken piano or violin lessons.

gedy 6y ago

> "There remains the possibility that a toxic culture in high school has prevented some students from realizing that they are interested in computers" I take some issue if the characterization is "the nerds" are the toxic ones here. It's been a while, but the high school culture was overall toxic if you were not attractive and popular, and computer geek types were frequently targets for their interests. Young women were as bad as the males in the shunning.

radford-neal 6y ago
I didn't mean to imply that the "nerds", or any of the students, were "toxic". It's the culture. Probably starting with the whole concept of segregating teenagers from the rest of society.
- gedy 6y ago
  Thanks, agreed
- burntoutfire 6y ago
  Interestingly, there was almost no bullying in my high school in Poland in the nineties. I think school bullying may be a product of Anglo-Saxxon culture, which is very individualistic, success oriented (i.e. if you're a "loser" you're barely a human being) and also kind of heartless. Currently, as Poland converges to the standard of global culture emanating from the US, there are reports of some cases of bullying, but still I don't think it's the everyday reality of each school.
  - jcranmer 6y ago
    > I think school bullying may be a product of Anglo-Saxxon culture, which is very individualistic, success oriented (i.e. if you're a "loser" you're barely a human being) and also kind of heartless. That is rather refuted by the rather notorious bullying in Japan, which is about as far away from individualistic culture as you can get.
  - orthoxerox 6y ago