5 ms·

Lisp: a cult I almost joined (2005)

52 points by gnosis 16y ago

serichsen 16y ago
Read the comment by Dan Weinreb. It is much more insightful than the article itself.
- prodigal_erik 16y ago
  I'm glad Weinreb brought up extensibility. Almost every good idea from Lisp has been recognized and widely adopted over the last fifty years, but its remaining claim to uniqueness and power is letting you make effortless changes to syntax and evaluation. You haven't constructively critiqued Lisp if you don't address that head on. As for "whatever you're reading this with [...] was written in a variant of C", well, yeah, that's why it's crap that blows up randomly. This is a problem that the industry is very slowly nerving itself to solve.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- michaelcampbell 16y ago
  It's also almost longer =)
- JoachimSchipper 16y ago
  It's good, but the list of "success stories" that he links is not very impressive (scheduling software for NASA is by far the coolest stuff). Python has http://www.python.org/about/success/ http://www.python.org/about/success/; Ruby has e.g. (early) Twitter and Metasploit; PHP has e.g. Facebook and a crushing market share; C has a zillion stories starting with the free Unixes. Yes, these languages have their issues. No, scheduling software does not beat Unix.
dexen 16y ago
gnosis: could you please break the usual `no editorializing the title' rule for once? I believe it's interesting and informative and deserves more than a cursory pass, but without `Lisp' in the title, it's hard to spot.
- gnosis 16y ago
  I considered adding Lisp in to the title, but wasn't quite sure how to phrase it. "A Lisp cult I almost joined" ? "A cult I almost joined [Lisp]" ? Also, there's something to be said for keeping the title as is, as it's a bit more mysterious.. and may pique the reader's interest to find out what the cult is. Putting "Lisp" in the title kind of spoils the surprise.
  - Confusion 16y ago
    Lisp: a cult I almost joined (2005)
    - gnosis 16y ago
      Alright. I like this phrasing. It is less mysterious.. but at least those interested in Lisp can find it. You know, I was just thinking.. this is yet another reason for HN to allow tags. As with tags the title could remain untouched and we'd still be able to categorize it as a Lisp-themed article, and even that it came from 2005.
  - StavrosK 16y ago
    "A cult I almotht joined."
praptak 16y ago
"And lisp modules? Well, every part of the code can modify every other part. You can write a whole new grammar if you're so inclined. None of this helps with the goal of downloading a random package and easily calling whatever you want from it with minimal hassle." This is bullshit. Python can also modify it's own code at runtime and yet it's one of the most package-complete languages. But it has a single defining implementation, so if you write your package, then every Python user will be able to use it. Have a look at Clojure and the rate it's gaining new libraries. Lisp features don't seem to hinder that. A single implementation (and what follows - non-fragmented community) helps it greatly.
- merijnv 16y ago
  Lisp can modify its own syntax at runtime, Python most definitely cannot.
  - fxj 16y ago
    because lisp does not have any syntax
    - arethuza 16y ago
      Of course it does - it has a very simple syntax built around S-expressions and even that is extensible through reader macros.
    - digitailor 16y ago
      Why is this downvoted? This is a fair thing to say. Lisp is basically an exposed Abstract Syntax Tree. Most languages get compiled down to something resembling a lisp before machine code. You could fairly refer to this as "syntaxless". It is just expressions in a tree format, not arbitrarily designed syntax for logic that must be stripped of its grammar for the machine to parse.
      - gnosis 16y ago
        It's downvoted because it's false. Try omitting parenthesis around your Lisp expression. Or try forgetting to balance your parenthesis. Common Lisp has #: and : and :: and ` vs ' and #+ and #. and a whole slew of others.
wulczer 16y ago
Come on, there are lots of self-deprecating Lisp jokes, my favourite being: An elite hacker broke into a government system and found the code of a secret NASA project. He tried to download it, but the sysadmins noticed the intrusion and eventually cut the hacker off. He only managed to get the last 40 kB of the source file and unfortunately, because the project was written in Lisp, it contained nothing but closing parens.
- StavrosK 16y ago
  That makes no sense. Who downloads files from the end up?!
  - wulczer 16y ago
    Elite hackers from jokes?
    - StavrosK 16y ago
      Suspension of disbelief ruined!
  - SamReidHughes 16y ago
    He had to download it into a linked list so it was only natural to download it from right to left.
- rbanffy 16y ago
  Last time I heard it, the first half of the program was corrupted and all that was left was the second half, consisting entirely of closing parentheses. Another version is that the file was stolen by a malicious hacker and help for ransom. As a proof he had the file, he sent the last part of the file. When one of the programmers saw only ")"s he knew the file was authentic.
- JonnieCache 16y ago
  Reminds me of the german professor, whose lectures would consist of 40 minutes of nested clauses, then a 20 minute list of verbs.
pavelludiq 16y ago
Lisp(and specifically common lisp) is one of the top languages people who don't know it like to criticize. That wouldn't be a bad thing if the criticism was any good. Every time i see a blog post about some "problem" with lisp the chances that it has something valuable to say are low. And calling a language community a cult is beyond offensive.
- dexen 16y ago
  I want to both upvote you (`` the chances that it has something valuable to say are low'') and downvote (``is beyond offensive'') at the same time. See, his arguments about Lisp community being a cult stand. Yours are purely emotional. Now we could agree that there is a very good reason to be cultic about Lisp -- it is the best thing since the sliced bread etc. etc. and people should just use it -- but that's another matter. In a way, he pre-empted your reaction with ``If such jokes reliably meet with stifling social disapproval, it's a cult.'' ;-)
  - pavelludiq 16y ago
    Taking yourself too seriously and being in a cult are two very different things. I agree that _some_ lisp people(even me at times) do in fact take lisp a tad too seriously, but i can't see how that makes you into a dangerous religious nut. P.S. Im starting my own lisp cult, called the cult of the mythical lisp cult, our goal will be to find the holly grail of programming language flame wars: evidence of the mythical lisp cult. See, a joke about lisp, and its recursive too :D
  - gnosis 16y ago
    I absolutely love Lisp, but I'm not in the least bit offended at someone describing some aspects of the culture as cultish. But the thing is.. the very same thing could be said of most other language enthusiasts. Look at all the endless hype from Python and Ruby fans (especially when they compare their favorite language to Perl). Or look at some OCaml or Haskell fanboys and their attitude that static typing is The True Way and only ignorant savages would prefer a dynamically typed language. And this doesn't even touch on the vi vs Emacs holy wars. There's plenty of fanboyishness, exclusivity, and and chastisement of outsiders in many computer fields. And I dare say it's not really limited to computers either. I'm not sure if "cultish" is really the most appropriate term, but I feel no offense at it. The whole discussion reminds me of these images: http://www.deimeke.net/dirk/blog/uploads/G7WyP.gif http://www.deimeke.net/dirk/blog/uploads/G7WyP.gif http://www.rubyinside.com/holiday-fun-how-programming-language-fanboys-see-each-others-languages-2911.html http://www.rubyinside.com/holiday-fun-how-programming-langua...
javert 16y ago
When I was in Morocco, several different people told me that Neil Armstrong converted to Islam after seeing the Earth, and that Cat Stevens converted. At first, this was OK, but soon, after the third person or so mentioned this pair, I got to wondering, maybe they're the only ones. Neil Armstrong did not convert to Islam; that's a fabrication. Cite: Wikipedia makes no mention of this, and Google search reveals many people claiming it's a commonly-believed fabrication.
- makmanalp 16y ago
  Wow, it's interesting how they haven't given up on Cat Stevens over the years. I guess they don't realize that the average youth these days doesn't even know Cat Stevens, let alone give a crap about him.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
digitailor 16y ago
As a member of this cult with absolutely no sense of humor, I would like to mention that we drink very delicious Kool-Aid, and we are allowed to wear two different colors of sneakers. And after the comet we will join as a spaceship lands, I have been promised a cushy job at our destination. (secret-lisp-cult-message <COMPILED-LEXICAL-OBJECT PUBLIC-KEY>)
brlewis 16y ago
Uh oh, he's onto us with that part about the desire to make things easy. We'd better post a bunch more essays about how Lisp is a language for geniuses only. He hasn't caught on about macros yet, but its only a matter of time before he starts looking at his own code and thinking beyond the limits of what functions can do to help you not repeat yourself. And then the jig is up.
edw 16y ago
The article is based on an entirely false assumption about the nature of lisp culture: “So, I can’t find any self-poking jokes about lisp. Self-deprecating Unix jokes, no problem. Jokes about frigging text editors, hilarious. But lisp has nothing but theological proselytizing.” Richard Gabriel’s “The Rise of ‘Worse is Better,’”[1] while written from the perspective of a lisp lover, informs the “Why is lisp a failure?” question. Mark Tarver’s “The Bipolar Lisp Programmer”[2] is another essay the ruminates on the failures of lisp. And of course there’s the recently-posted-on-HN “How I lost my faith”[3]. I’m struck by how personally lispers take the weaknesses of lisp. In part because I feel the same way, which isn’t surprising given that I'm a lisper—bicycles saved my body, Scheme saved my soul—and have a problem with taking failure very personally. In conclusion, I don’t think the author knows what he’s talking about. [1]: http://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html http://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html [2]: http://www.lambdassociates.org/blog/bipolar.htm http://www.lambdassociates.org/blog/bipolar.htm [3]: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/6f75cfb5a289d3f6 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/6f75cfb5a2...
decklin 16y ago
Very strange that he describes the MIT approach as "good" and the New Jersey approach as "not good enough" -- I have always understood them as "good" and "good enough". As in: why didn't we succeed? Because good enough was good enough. Based on this misconception he draws the conclusion that the Lisp folks think the C/Unix approach is "evil", which is just silly. Maybe this is why he thinks it's a cult.
its2010already 16y ago
Surely this proves Lisp is a cult: http://pics.livejournal.com/codedot/pic/0002t3b1 http://pics.livejournal.com/codedot/pic/0002t3b1

52 points by gnosis 16y ago

serichsen 16y ago

Read the comment by Dan Weinreb. It is much more insightful than the article itself.

prodigal_erik 16y ago
I'm glad Weinreb brought up extensibility. Almost every good idea from Lisp has been recognized and widely adopted over the last fifty years, but its remaining claim to uniqueness and power is letting you make effortless changes to syntax and evaluation. You haven't constructively critiqued Lisp if you don't address that head on. As for "whatever you're reading this with [...] was written in a variant of C", well, yeah, that's why it's crap that blows up randomly. This is a problem that the industry is very slowly nerving itself to solve.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
michaelcampbell 16y ago
It's also almost longer =)
JoachimSchipper 16y ago
It's good, but the list of "success stories" that he links is not very impressive (scheduling software for NASA is by far the coolest stuff). Python has http://www.python.org/about/success/ http://www.python.org/about/success/; Ruby has e.g. (early) Twitter and Metasploit; PHP has e.g. Facebook and a crushing market share; C has a zillion stories starting with the free Unixes. Yes, these languages have their issues. No, scheduling software does not beat Unix.

dexen 16y ago

gnosis: could you please break the usual `no editorializing the title' rule for once? I believe it's interesting and informative and deserves more than a cursory pass, but without `Lisp' in the title, it's hard to spot.

gnosis 16y ago
I considered adding Lisp in to the title, but wasn't quite sure how to phrase it. "A Lisp cult I almost joined" ? "A cult I almost joined [Lisp]" ? Also, there's something to be said for keeping the title as is, as it's a bit more mysterious.. and may pique the reader's interest to find out what the cult is. Putting "Lisp" in the title kind of spoils the surprise.
- Confusion 16y ago
  Lisp: a cult I almost joined (2005)
  - gnosis 16y ago
    Alright. I like this phrasing. It is less mysterious.. but at least those interested in Lisp can find it. You know, I was just thinking.. this is yet another reason for HN to allow tags. As with tags the title could remain untouched and we'd still be able to categorize it as a Lisp-themed article, and even that it came from 2005.
- StavrosK 16y ago
  "A cult I almotht joined."

praptak 16y ago

"And lisp modules? Well, every part of the code can modify every other part. You can write a whole new grammar if you're so inclined. None of this helps with the goal of downloading a random package and easily calling whatever you want from it with minimal hassle." This is bullshit. Python can also modify it's own code at runtime and yet it's one of the most package-complete languages. But it has a single defining implementation, so if you write your package, then every Python user will be able to use it. Have a look at Clojure and the rate it's gaining new libraries. Lisp features don't seem to hinder that. A single implementation (and what follows - non-fragmented community) helps it greatly.

merijnv 16y ago
Lisp can modify its own syntax at runtime, Python most definitely cannot.
- fxj 16y ago
  because lisp does not have any syntax
  - arethuza 16y ago
    Of course it does - it has a very simple syntax built around S-expressions and even that is extensible through reader macros.
  - digitailor 16y ago
    Why is this downvoted? This is a fair thing to say. Lisp is basically an exposed Abstract Syntax Tree. Most languages get compiled down to something resembling a lisp before machine code. You could fairly refer to this as "syntaxless". It is just expressions in a tree format, not arbitrarily designed syntax for logic that must be stripped of its grammar for the machine to parse.
    - gnosis 16y ago
      It's downvoted because it's false. Try omitting parenthesis around your Lisp expression. Or try forgetting to balance your parenthesis. Common Lisp has #: and : and :: and ` vs ' and #+ and #. and a whole slew of others.

wulczer 16y ago

Come on, there are lots of self-deprecating Lisp jokes, my favourite being: An elite hacker broke into a government system and found the code of a secret NASA project. He tried to download it, but the sysadmins noticed the intrusion and eventually cut the hacker off. He only managed to get the last 40 kB of the source file and unfortunately, because the project was written in Lisp, it contained nothing but closing parens.

StavrosK 16y ago
That makes no sense. Who downloads files from the end up?!
- wulczer 16y ago
  Elite hackers from jokes?
  - StavrosK 16y ago
    Suspension of disbelief ruined!
- SamReidHughes 16y ago
  He had to download it into a linked list so it was only natural to download it from right to left.
rbanffy 16y ago
Last time I heard it, the first half of the program was corrupted and all that was left was the second half, consisting entirely of closing parentheses. Another version is that the file was stolen by a malicious hacker and help for ransom. As a proof he had the file, he sent the last part of the file. When one of the programmers saw only ")"s he knew the file was authentic.
JonnieCache 16y ago
Reminds me of the german professor, whose lectures would consist of 40 minutes of nested clauses, then a 20 minute list of verbs.

pavelludiq 16y ago

Lisp(and specifically common lisp) is one of the top languages people who don't know it like to criticize. That wouldn't be a bad thing if the criticism was any good. Every time i see a blog post about some "problem" with lisp the chances that it has something valuable to say are low. And calling a language community a cult is beyond offensive.

dexen 16y ago
I want to both upvote you (`` the chances that it has something valuable to say are low'') and downvote (``is beyond offensive'') at the same time. See, his arguments about Lisp community being a cult stand. Yours are purely emotional. Now we could agree that there is a very good reason to be cultic about Lisp -- it is the best thing since the sliced bread etc. etc. and people should just use it -- but that's another matter. In a way, he pre-empted your reaction with ``If such jokes reliably meet with stifling social disapproval, it's a cult.'' ;-)
- pavelludiq 16y ago
  Taking yourself too seriously and being in a cult are two very different things. I agree that _some_ lisp people(even me at times) do in fact take lisp a tad too seriously, but i can't see how that makes you into a dangerous religious nut. P.S. Im starting my own lisp cult, called the cult of the mythical lisp cult, our goal will be to find the holly grail of programming language flame wars: evidence of the mythical lisp cult. See, a joke about lisp, and its recursive too :D
- gnosis 16y ago
  I absolutely love Lisp, but I'm not in the least bit offended at someone describing some aspects of the culture as cultish. But the thing is.. the very same thing could be said of most other language enthusiasts. Look at all the endless hype from Python and Ruby fans (especially when they compare their favorite language to Perl). Or look at some OCaml or Haskell fanboys and their attitude that static typing is The True Way and only ignorant savages would prefer a dynamically typed language. And this doesn't even touch on the vi vs Emacs holy wars. There's plenty of fanboyishness, exclusivity, and and chastisement of outsiders in many computer fields. And I dare say it's not really limited to computers either. I'm not sure if "cultish" is really the most appropriate term, but I feel no offense at it. The whole discussion reminds me of these images: http://www.deimeke.net/dirk/blog/uploads/G7WyP.gif http://www.deimeke.net/dirk/blog/uploads/G7WyP.gif http://www.rubyinside.com/holiday-fun-how-programming-language-fanboys-see-each-others-languages-2911.html http://www.rubyinside.com/holiday-fun-how-programming-langua...

javert 16y ago

When I was in Morocco, several different people told me that Neil Armstrong converted to Islam after seeing the Earth, and that Cat Stevens converted. At first, this was OK, but soon, after the third person or so mentioned this pair, I got to wondering, maybe they're the only ones. Neil Armstrong did not convert to Islam; that's a fabrication. Cite: Wikipedia makes no mention of this, and Google search reveals many people claiming it's a commonly-believed fabrication.

makmanalp 16y ago
Wow, it's interesting how they haven't given up on Cat Stevens over the years. I guess they don't realize that the average youth these days doesn't even know Cat Stevens, let alone give a crap about him.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]

digitailor 16y ago

As a member of this cult with absolutely no sense of humor, I would like to mention that we drink very delicious Kool-Aid, and we are allowed to wear two different colors of sneakers. And after the comet we will join as a spaceship lands, I have been promised a cushy job at our destination. (secret-lisp-cult-message <COMPILED-LEXICAL-OBJECT PUBLIC-KEY>)

brlewis 16y ago

Uh oh, he's onto us with that part about the desire to make things easy. We'd better post a bunch more essays about how Lisp is a language for geniuses only. He hasn't caught on about macros yet, but its only a matter of time before he starts looking at his own code and thinking beyond the limits of what functions can do to help you not repeat yourself. And then the jig is up.

edw 16y ago

The article is based on an entirely false assumption about the nature of lisp culture: “So, I can’t find any self-poking jokes about lisp. Self-deprecating Unix jokes, no problem. Jokes about frigging text editors, hilarious. But lisp has nothing but theological proselytizing.” Richard Gabriel’s “The Rise of ‘Worse is Better,’”[1] while written from the perspective of a lisp lover, informs the “Why is lisp a failure?” question. Mark Tarver’s “The Bipolar Lisp Programmer”[2] is another essay the ruminates on the failures of lisp. And of course there’s the recently-posted-on-HN “How I lost my faith”[3]. I’m struck by how personally lispers take the weaknesses of lisp. In part because I feel the same way, which isn’t surprising given that I'm a lisper—bicycles saved my body, Scheme saved my soul—and have a problem with taking failure very personally. In conclusion, I don’t think the author knows what he’s talking about. [1]: http://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html http://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html [2]: http://www.lambdassociates.org/blog/bipolar.htm http://www.lambdassociates.org/blog/bipolar.htm [3]: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/6f75cfb5a289d3f6 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/6f75cfb5a2...

decklin 16y ago

Very strange that he describes the MIT approach as "good" and the New Jersey approach as "not good enough" -- I have always understood them as "good" and "good enough". As in: why didn't we succeed? Because good enough was good enough. Based on this misconception he draws the conclusion that the Lisp folks think the C/Unix approach is "evil", which is just silly. Maybe this is why he thinks it's a cult.

its2010already 16y ago

Surely this proves Lisp is a cult: http://pics.livejournal.com/codedot/pic/0002t3b1 http://pics.livejournal.com/codedot/pic/0002t3b1