10 ms·

> "We're a small unimportant island so that's fine" 5th or 6th biggest economy in the world, population of 70m+, nuclear weapons, globally influential in vario

> "We're a small unimportant island so that's fine" 5th or 6th biggest economy in the world, population of 70m+, nuclear weapons, globally influential in various different ways, in London has one of world's top cities and world's largest financial centre by some measures, has many world leading businesses, one of the world's most visited countries, so small and unimportant that some say the EU faces an existential crisis as a result of its departure... Small yes but unimportant is certainly debatable - and it makes me sad that people try to run this country down, when the fact that thousands of migrants are willing to risk death to get here tells a very different story.

foldr 6y ago
We were important before we left the EU.
giantDinosaur 6y ago
I assume the poster you're responding to (perhaps with some hyperbole) is thinking of the UK in the context of separate from the US, China, and the EU - in which case it is comparatively small, and while not unimportant, certainly less important.
7952 6y ago
I get where you are coming from. But to play devils advocate, a lot of us aspire to be less important on the world stage. There are lots of things I am proud about, but big power politics is not one of them. Nor does success in other areas require us to play those kind of games. We need to get over out inferiority complex. We are not exceptionally powerful or exceptionally week. We can have modest aspirations in one area whilst excelling in others.
- Lio 6y ago
  Given that social media often has the affect of an echo chamber I think that "a lot of us aspire to be less important" is hard to take as anything more than "some of my friends aspire". You might feel that we have an "inferiority complex" but that's just your take on it. The UK is one of the world's leading military powers by most measurements. The left wing meme that Britain should accept a smaller role in the world or that our economy is too small to mater does not chime with reality. For the record I think that leaving the EU has made us weaker and more isolated.
  - 7952 6y ago
    I think my views are heavily influenced by the resurgence of nationalism. And I see that nationalism as being indicative of an inferiority complex in a lot of our world dealings. So that does colour my views on this kind of thing. But I would never presume to speak on behalf of others, or that my views have any wider applicability. And why should they? These are political views about the future of our country. There is no objective reality to chime with. A perception of our past has nothing to do with our future direction. I absolutely agree that Britain has a serious economy and ability to project power. But that is not an objective reason to have a particular kind of foreign policy. Or to spend lots of money on reproducing a foreign military capability.
- gorgoiler 6y ago
  An aspect it is ok to embrace is the culture. The UK is second only to Sweden in terms of global pop music influence.
  - sideshowb 6y ago
    How do you measure that? Much though Abba are great I'd put the UK ahead of Sweden on that scale
  - growlist 6y ago
    'culture'
  - mrep 6y ago
    What? Wiki says "Pop music has been dominated by the American and (from the mid-1960s) British music industries, whose influence has made pop music something of an international monoculture" [0]. I mean, Zara Larsson has got some catchy songs but that's the only Swede I can think of off the top of my head. Compared to the US and the UK whose got Michael Jackson and Madonna, known respectively as the "King and Queen of Pop", the Beatles and more. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pop_music#International_spread https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pop_music#International_spread
dijit 6y ago
Ugh, this is a tired meme. FWIW I'm British and living in Sweden, so you can derive from that anything you like. But from my perspective there has been a lot of narrative in my lifetime that tells me our country is quite important, but that narrative is definitely not supported by the facts. the EU doesn't face an "existential crisis", the issue's that the EU face is: 1) Is the EU still big enough to challenge the US and Russia? 2) Why is euroscepticism on the rise? how can we combat false information when we have no budget for public relations? 3) How can we ensure that the exit of the UK doesn't end messy (messy leaving things unsure, unresolved or confusing) w.r.t. Nuclear weapons and population size, 70M is paltry in comparison to most countries, so unless you're only comparing EU countries to the UK then you're mistaken that it's globally significant. The fact is that we have disproportionate influence compared to our land/population size, and that is because historically we colonized a third of the planet, our wealth from that time is dwindling, we have smeared our influence with the rise of the right wing and the childish way we divorced ourselves from our closest allies. Thousands of migrants enter the EU; the right wing media would have you believe that they almost all want to come to the UK, the fact is that /some/ want to come to the UK because they already speak English and learning another language is difficult in their situation, there are other reasons but this is by-in-large the most common one.
- growlist 6y ago
  You forgot at least a couple of big ones e.g. the indefensible calamity that is the destruction of millions of young people's life chances due to the Euro, the near-collapse of unity and immediate reversion to national self-interest in the face of a genuine disaster i.e. CV, persistent stagnation and lack of growth, gleeful destruction of the EU's natural environment in stark contrast to political virtue signalling, etc. etc.
  - dijit 6y ago
    This is liable to become a shit slinging fest I imagine, because I believe that while the EU does have issues it is not as bad as we make out and we blind ourselves to the issues we have at home. How about we agree that the UK has done much worse than the EU regarding its governance? (I mean we have: Grenfell, our homeless problem, our funding of NHS, our human rights violations, our de-regulated banking system, our selling of fishing rights to EU companies and then crying foul, our reliance on hand-outs for agriculture, our housing crisis fuelled by foreign "investment", our massive inequality between the north and the south, social mobility being stifled for generations due to Conservative cuts to the poorest areas such as Coventry, our national transport system that costs more than any other EU country and is less reliable- AND london focused for some reason, the house of lords, the russian collusion dossier that Boris will not release, the defence of Dominic Cummings breaking lock-down (I mean, rules for thee but not for me)) I will not begin to defend things like the euro because it's mainly in hindsight that it's a bad idea. But aside from a few very real mis-steps by the EU it's overwhelmingly more democratic, fair and has far /fewer/ issues than the UK Government does. I sincerely believe we needed reforms at home before we looked to the EU.
TomMarius 6y ago
> so small and unimportant that some say the EU faces an existential crisis as a result of its departure Eh, exactly who is facing existential crisis over UK leaving? No signs of any of that here on mainland.
- mellosouls 6y ago
  From my reading of several articles, some have raised the question that Brexit will be a potential path-setter for other dissatisfied EU members (for whatever reason), but the general tone has been that it's unlikely. So the EU probably isn't facing an existential crisis due to Brexit but it's significant enough to raise those questions.
  - toyg 6y ago
    The effect has been the opposite - Brexit single-handedly wiped the anti-European elements of most populist parties on the continent, in a similar way as the Greek crisis wiped most anti-Euro objections. When power imbalances are revealed in such stark contrast, people tend to go with the bigger guy.
    - nicky0 6y ago
      Temporarily at least. A lot will depend on whether Britain makes a success of Brexit or not.
    - Ma8ee 6y ago
      Did the Greek crisis wipe most anti-Euro objections? How? At least for me the Greek crisis tipped me over to the side that thinks the Euro was a colossal mistake. (I’m strong proponent of the EU, but the euro only works well for Germany).
      - toyg 6y ago
        Countries that were flirting with the idea of backtracking on the Euro, like Italy and (to a lesser degree) Spain, have effectively removed the item from their political agenda for the time being. It has become radioactive in electoral terms. Even the anti-EU (and Putin-backed) parties stopped mentioning it. People are scared shitless of ending up like Greece did in those fateful weeks, without functioning banks and with a bankrupt State. It’s better to have an expensive mortgage for a solid house, than living for free in a shack. The Euro is not perfect but you cannot realistically have a strong EU in the long run without a common currency. More tweaking is absolutely necessary (and effectively happening, slowly and under the political cover of this or that crisis, by introducing more mechanisms to move more money out of Germany), but losing a common currency would be the end of the project.
JustARandomGuy 6y ago
The "globally influential" and London being a top financial center will certainly decrease after Brexit. You'll see a lot of EU banking moving from London to Berlin or possibly Paris.
- gumby 6y ago
  I think Brexit is disastrous nonsense, but I wonder how much of this will happen. That was the prediction/hope for the Euro yet the majority of trading happened in London outside the Euro zone. They will be outside the portability regime though, so some trading will of necessity be moving.
- brummm 6y ago
  Banking would move to Frankfurt in Germany, not Berlin.
  - walshemj 6y ago
    After the recent wirecard fiasco Frankfurt is not going to very popular for that.
    - dathinab 6y ago
      Why not, it's like saying after Facebooks privacy scandal silicon valley became less popular for other companies. (Yes SV became less popular in recent year, but because of other reasons).
      - walshemj 6y ago
        It was the regulators actions I was thinking of - going after FT Journalists etc. Its about the credibility of the financial system. Some of the senior people at BAFIN should have resigned by now
- andylynch 6y ago
  It’s going to Frankfurt and Amsterdam (plus a bit to Dublin)
gumby 6y ago
> some say the EU faces an existential crisis as a result of its departure... Some britons say...
- drumhead 6y ago
  The EU doesnt need the departure of the UK to face an existential crisis, they faced their biggest test with the Pandemic and failed miserably.
  - Barrin92 6y ago
    The EU has now largely quelled the disease, mostly restored freedom of movement and is in the process of mobilizing financial support and reforming its institutions while the pandemic is only picking up steam in the Americas, the ME, Africa and India. There was a lot that went wrong and the EU is as always excruciatingly slow and lacking solidarity, but compared to much of the rest of the world despite being hit early the situation has been managed well. Support for brexit in the UK itself has now fallen to 35%, while almost 60% would support staying in the union. Similar rise in support is also visible on the continent with support for anti-EU populist parties pretty much in free fall, so I have no idea where this narrative is coming from. https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/25/uk/uk-supports-eu-four-years-after-brexit-intl-gbr/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/25/uk/uk-supports-eu-four-ye...
  - iso947 6y ago
    US states had to deploy the national guard to defend their supplies against federal troops
  - ben_w 6y ago
    The EU is a trading block with an affiliated currency (used outside and not in all member states) and affiliated human rights court (all member states are in it and so are some other states). It doesn’t have a health policy, AFAIK. That said, if the EU did have a combined health policy, and the pandemic was a test of this policy, then the EU faired better than the UK. (As did Scotland, despite being part of the UK and not independent).
riffraff 6y ago
most of what you wrote applies to Switzerland, yet they didn't feel the need to launch their own global navigation service.
- microtherion 6y ago
  I believe Switzerland is a Galileo member: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_13_1292 https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_13_... Plus, millennia of mountain living have provided us with an unerring sense of direction anyway.
  - riffraff 6y ago
    that was my point, sorry if I wasn't clear: Switzerland joined Galileo while being non-EU member, the UK could have done the same rather than launch their own system.
    - microtherion 6y ago
      There might be a path dependency there. Switzerland was never an EU member, and negotiated to join a number of EU institutions as a special case. It's not clear that the EU was even prepared to offer a similar deal to a departing member. Furthermore, the EU has become less and less enthusiastic about these kinds of arrangements, so even Switzerland is finding it harder to join individual deals.
baybal2 6y ago
I think London must secede from UK. I heard once somewhere that London is de-jure independent from the British crown by some prehistoric treaty. A weird legal status where independence !== sovereignty.
morsch 6y ago
> population of 70m+, I mean, this is a minor thing, but from what I can tell the UK had a population of ~63m in 2011 when last counted, and an estimated population of ~68m in 2020. Maybe you're referring to projections, which estimate that the figure will break the 70m barrier in about 10 years.

foldr 6y ago

We were important before we left the EU.

giantDinosaur 6y ago

I assume the poster you're responding to (perhaps with some hyperbole) is thinking of the UK in the context of separate from the US, China, and the EU - in which case it is comparatively small, and while not unimportant, certainly less important.

7952 6y ago

I get where you are coming from. But to play devils advocate, a lot of us aspire to be less important on the world stage. There are lots of things I am proud about, but big power politics is not one of them. Nor does success in other areas require us to play those kind of games. We need to get over out inferiority complex. We are not exceptionally powerful or exceptionally week. We can have modest aspirations in one area whilst excelling in others.

Lio 6y ago
Given that social media often has the affect of an echo chamber I think that "a lot of us aspire to be less important" is hard to take as anything more than "some of my friends aspire". You might feel that we have an "inferiority complex" but that's just your take on it. The UK is one of the world's leading military powers by most measurements. The left wing meme that Britain should accept a smaller role in the world or that our economy is too small to mater does not chime with reality. For the record I think that leaving the EU has made us weaker and more isolated.
- 7952 6y ago
  I think my views are heavily influenced by the resurgence of nationalism. And I see that nationalism as being indicative of an inferiority complex in a lot of our world dealings. So that does colour my views on this kind of thing. But I would never presume to speak on behalf of others, or that my views have any wider applicability. And why should they? These are political views about the future of our country. There is no objective reality to chime with. A perception of our past has nothing to do with our future direction. I absolutely agree that Britain has a serious economy and ability to project power. But that is not an objective reason to have a particular kind of foreign policy. Or to spend lots of money on reproducing a foreign military capability.
gorgoiler 6y ago
An aspect it is ok to embrace is the culture. The UK is second only to Sweden in terms of global pop music influence.
- sideshowb 6y ago
  How do you measure that? Much though Abba are great I'd put the UK ahead of Sweden on that scale
- growlist 6y ago
  'culture'
- mrep 6y ago
  What? Wiki says "Pop music has been dominated by the American and (from the mid-1960s) British music industries, whose influence has made pop music something of an international monoculture" [0]. I mean, Zara Larsson has got some catchy songs but that's the only Swede I can think of off the top of my head. Compared to the US and the UK whose got Michael Jackson and Madonna, known respectively as the "King and Queen of Pop", the Beatles and more. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pop_music#International_spread https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pop_music#International_spread

dijit 6y ago

Ugh, this is a tired meme. FWIW I'm British and living in Sweden, so you can derive from that anything you like. But from my perspective there has been a lot of narrative in my lifetime that tells me our country is quite important, but that narrative is definitely not supported by the facts. the EU doesn't face an "existential crisis", the issue's that the EU face is: 1) Is the EU still big enough to challenge the US and Russia? 2) Why is euroscepticism on the rise? how can we combat false information when we have no budget for public relations? 3) How can we ensure that the exit of the UK doesn't end messy (messy leaving things unsure, unresolved or confusing) w.r.t. Nuclear weapons and population size, 70M is paltry in comparison to most countries, so unless you're only comparing EU countries to the UK then you're mistaken that it's globally significant. The fact is that we have disproportionate influence compared to our land/population size, and that is because historically we colonized a third of the planet, our wealth from that time is dwindling, we have smeared our influence with the rise of the right wing and the childish way we divorced ourselves from our closest allies. Thousands of migrants enter the EU; the right wing media would have you believe that they almost all want to come to the UK, the fact is that /some/ want to come to the UK because they already speak English and learning another language is difficult in their situation, there are other reasons but this is by-in-large the most common one.

growlist 6y ago
You forgot at least a couple of big ones e.g. the indefensible calamity that is the destruction of millions of young people's life chances due to the Euro, the near-collapse of unity and immediate reversion to national self-interest in the face of a genuine disaster i.e. CV, persistent stagnation and lack of growth, gleeful destruction of the EU's natural environment in stark contrast to political virtue signalling, etc. etc.
- dijit 6y ago
  This is liable to become a shit slinging fest I imagine, because I believe that while the EU does have issues it is not as bad as we make out and we blind ourselves to the issues we have at home. How about we agree that the UK has done much worse than the EU regarding its governance? (I mean we have: Grenfell, our homeless problem, our funding of NHS, our human rights violations, our de-regulated banking system, our selling of fishing rights to EU companies and then crying foul, our reliance on hand-outs for agriculture, our housing crisis fuelled by foreign "investment", our massive inequality between the north and the south, social mobility being stifled for generations due to Conservative cuts to the poorest areas such as Coventry, our national transport system that costs more than any other EU country and is less reliable- AND london focused for some reason, the house of lords, the russian collusion dossier that Boris will not release, the defence of Dominic Cummings breaking lock-down (I mean, rules for thee but not for me)) I will not begin to defend things like the euro because it's mainly in hindsight that it's a bad idea. But aside from a few very real mis-steps by the EU it's overwhelmingly more democratic, fair and has far /fewer/ issues than the UK Government does. I sincerely believe we needed reforms at home before we looked to the EU.

TomMarius 6y ago

> so small and unimportant that some say the EU faces an existential crisis as a result of its departure Eh, exactly who is facing existential crisis over UK leaving? No signs of any of that here on mainland.

mellosouls 6y ago
From my reading of several articles, some have raised the question that Brexit will be a potential path-setter for other dissatisfied EU members (for whatever reason), but the general tone has been that it's unlikely. So the EU probably isn't facing an existential crisis due to Brexit but it's significant enough to raise those questions.
- toyg 6y ago
  The effect has been the opposite - Brexit single-handedly wiped the anti-European elements of most populist parties on the continent, in a similar way as the Greek crisis wiped most anti-Euro objections. When power imbalances are revealed in such stark contrast, people tend to go with the bigger guy.
  - nicky0 6y ago
    Temporarily at least. A lot will depend on whether Britain makes a success of Brexit or not.
  - Ma8ee 6y ago
    Did the Greek crisis wipe most anti-Euro objections? How? At least for me the Greek crisis tipped me over to the side that thinks the Euro was a colossal mistake. (I’m strong proponent of the EU, but the euro only works well for Germany).
    - toyg 6y ago
      Countries that were flirting with the idea of backtracking on the Euro, like Italy and (to a lesser degree) Spain, have effectively removed the item from their political agenda for the time being. It has become radioactive in electoral terms. Even the anti-EU (and Putin-backed) parties stopped mentioning it. People are scared shitless of ending up like Greece did in those fateful weeks, without functioning banks and with a bankrupt State. It’s better to have an expensive mortgage for a solid house, than living for free in a shack. The Euro is not perfect but you cannot realistically have a strong EU in the long run without a common currency. More tweaking is absolutely necessary (and effectively happening, slowly and under the political cover of this or that crisis, by introducing more mechanisms to move more money out of Germany), but losing a common currency would be the end of the project.

JustARandomGuy 6y ago

The "globally influential" and London being a top financial center will certainly decrease after Brexit. You'll see a lot of EU banking moving from London to Berlin or possibly Paris.

gumby 6y ago
I think Brexit is disastrous nonsense, but I wonder how much of this will happen. That was the prediction/hope for the Euro yet the majority of trading happened in London outside the Euro zone. They will be outside the portability regime though, so some trading will of necessity be moving.
brummm 6y ago
Banking would move to Frankfurt in Germany, not Berlin.
- walshemj 6y ago
  After the recent wirecard fiasco Frankfurt is not going to very popular for that.
  - dathinab 6y ago
    Why not, it's like saying after Facebooks privacy scandal silicon valley became less popular for other companies. (Yes SV became less popular in recent year, but because of other reasons).
    - walshemj 6y ago
      It was the regulators actions I was thinking of - going after FT Journalists etc. Its about the credibility of the financial system. Some of the senior people at BAFIN should have resigned by now
andylynch 6y ago
It’s going to Frankfurt and Amsterdam (plus a bit to Dublin)

gumby 6y ago

> some say the EU faces an existential crisis as a result of its departure... Some britons say...

drumhead 6y ago
The EU doesnt need the departure of the UK to face an existential crisis, they faced their biggest test with the Pandemic and failed miserably.
- Barrin92 6y ago
  The EU has now largely quelled the disease, mostly restored freedom of movement and is in the process of mobilizing financial support and reforming its institutions while the pandemic is only picking up steam in the Americas, the ME, Africa and India. There was a lot that went wrong and the EU is as always excruciatingly slow and lacking solidarity, but compared to much of the rest of the world despite being hit early the situation has been managed well. Support for brexit in the UK itself has now fallen to 35%, while almost 60% would support staying in the union. Similar rise in support is also visible on the continent with support for anti-EU populist parties pretty much in free fall, so I have no idea where this narrative is coming from. https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/25/uk/uk-supports-eu-four-years-after-brexit-intl-gbr/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/25/uk/uk-supports-eu-four-ye...
- iso947 6y ago
  US states had to deploy the national guard to defend their supplies against federal troops
- ben_w 6y ago
  The EU is a trading block with an affiliated currency (used outside and not in all member states) and affiliated human rights court (all member states are in it and so are some other states). It doesn’t have a health policy, AFAIK. That said, if the EU did have a combined health policy, and the pandemic was a test of this policy, then the EU faired better than the UK. (As did Scotland, despite being part of the UK and not independent).

riffraff 6y ago

most of what you wrote applies to Switzerland, yet they didn't feel the need to launch their own global navigation service.

microtherion 6y ago
I believe Switzerland is a Galileo member: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_13_1292 https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_13_... Plus, millennia of mountain living have provided us with an unerring sense of direction anyway.
- riffraff 6y ago
  that was my point, sorry if I wasn't clear: Switzerland joined Galileo while being non-EU member, the UK could have done the same rather than launch their own system.
  - microtherion 6y ago
    There might be a path dependency there. Switzerland was never an EU member, and negotiated to join a number of EU institutions as a special case. It's not clear that the EU was even prepared to offer a similar deal to a departing member. Furthermore, the EU has become less and less enthusiastic about these kinds of arrangements, so even Switzerland is finding it harder to join individual deals.

baybal2 6y ago

I think London must secede from UK. I heard once somewhere that London is de-jure independent from the British crown by some prehistoric treaty. A weird legal status where independence !== sovereignty.

morsch 6y ago

> population of 70m+, I mean, this is a minor thing, but from what I can tell the UK had a population of ~63m in 2011 when last counted, and an estimated population of ~68m in 2020. Maybe you're referring to projections, which estimate that the figure will break the 70m barrier in about 10 years.