4 ms·

You’re right. I went to a slightly posh school and my parents actually got commiserations that I was going on to study comp sci. “I.T.” is still not a high stat

You’re right. I went to a slightly posh school and my parents actually got commiserations that I was going on to study comp sci. “I.T.” is still not a high status field in the LEAST in the UK. It went down like telling people I was going to drop out and become a mechanic (not that there’s anything wrong with that either, but it’s all about the perceived status of the field).

TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
The UK - especially the UK Establishment - is spectacularly clueless about STEM. When I did my EE degree a friend of the family was pleased that I'd be able to use my Honours Degree and mathematical insight into Maxwell's Equations to get a good job as a TV repairman. There's a strong class bias against people who do things. The class ideal is someone who owns things and tells others what to do in broad terms ("business strategy") and then leaves the little people to fill in the details. One of these people asked me to contribute to a course in iOS app development. There was a lot of fluff about work ethic and marketing, and then I was supposed to come in for half a day at the end and explain to a room full of teenagers who had never done any programming of any kind how to build a complete working iOS app - "Something simple, like a map of house prices in the UK, or something like that."
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  Right - I get exactly the same thing. I have a PhD and am a senior staff engineer and people in UK society still assume I'm very low paid and very low status, and that I work in a cubicle as an underclass troll. I have my feet in two camps because I'm also an Army officer. As soon as I put that hat on (literally) my social status goes up by an order of magnitude. I think a lot of people in CS don't know what it's like in other fields and they assume they're relatively well regarded and respected by society. They aren't!
- marcus_holmes 6y ago
  I think it's because they can't relate. If I had a degree in English, then there could be a conversation about all sorts of things. But I work "in computers", and the only thing to talk about is "so, my computer has started making this funny noise..." I find the same bias against people who do things in work life too. I have an MBA, but routinely find myself marginalised in meetings because I code. Somehow the guy from Sales who doesn't understand how the product works has a more respected opinion on our market strategy than the guy with the MBA who literally understands everything about both the market and the product (because I designed the product to meet the market). It's frustrating.
towerblock 6y ago
Of course, status is multidimensional, so to say it's "zero" is a bit immoderate. I studied CS in the UK (Cambridge) and I'd agree that it's not a prestigious field. Having said that, CS academics are generally fairly well off, some being posher than others. I think a major factor in the low status is their lack of cultural knowledge (cultural capital), even if they know or are related to others who do have it. Much of what can be said about CS in the UK is true of the "technical middle class" in general. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_British_Class_Survey#Technical_middle_class https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_British_Class_Survey#Tec... "The technical middle class, about 6 percent of British society, shows high economic capital, very high status of social contacts, but relatively few contacts reported, and moderate cultural capital. Occupations represented include medical radiographers, aircraft pilots, pharmacists, natural and social science professionals and physical scientists, senior professionals in education establishments, and business, research, and administrative positions.[17] The technical middle class is relatively well to do, with an average household incomes of £38,000, average savings of £66,000 and houses worth an average of £163,000. Members of the class report the lowest number of social contacts of any of the classes, though these do tend to be high status, probably mostly other professional experts. It is relatively culturally disengaged with both highbrow and emerging culture. Women comprise about 59 percent of this class. Many of technical middle class do research or scientific and technical work; a portion of the graduates are from established and prestigious universities with strong reputations for science, such as University of Birmingham, University of Warwick, University of Cambridge, University College London, University of Southampton, and Imperial College London with degrees in science and technology. Many of the technical middle class live in South East England where scientific and technical jobs are to be found. If they live in an urban area they live in the suburbs. Many of them have middle-class origins but are less engaged socially and culturally with the arts and humanities."
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- paganel 6y ago
  > Much of what can be said about CS in the UK is true of the "technical middle class" in general. Going on a tangent here, but I observed the same thing while reading Proust's "In Search of Lost Time" when I was in high-school (20+ years ago), i.e. that the "technical middle class" and even the "technical upper class" of late 19th century France were way below the aristocracy of that time. A respected engineer who had graduated from the "École des mines" and who might have even held a job as a Government minister had no chance to attend the parties hosted by the duchesse de Guermantes. Things might have changed in the meantime, though.

TheOtherHobbes 6y ago

The UK - especially the UK Establishment - is spectacularly clueless about STEM. When I did my EE degree a friend of the family was pleased that I'd be able to use my Honours Degree and mathematical insight into Maxwell's Equations to get a good job as a TV repairman. There's a strong class bias against people who do things. The class ideal is someone who owns things and tells others what to do in broad terms ("business strategy") and then leaves the little people to fill in the details. One of these people asked me to contribute to a course in iOS app development. There was a lot of fluff about work ethic and marketing, and then I was supposed to come in for half a day at the end and explain to a room full of teenagers who had never done any programming of any kind how to build a complete working iOS app - "Something simple, like a map of house prices in the UK, or something like that."

chrisseaton 6y ago
Right - I get exactly the same thing. I have a PhD and am a senior staff engineer and people in UK society still assume I'm very low paid and very low status, and that I work in a cubicle as an underclass troll. I have my feet in two camps because I'm also an Army officer. As soon as I put that hat on (literally) my social status goes up by an order of magnitude. I think a lot of people in CS don't know what it's like in other fields and they assume they're relatively well regarded and respected by society. They aren't!
marcus_holmes 6y ago
I think it's because they can't relate. If I had a degree in English, then there could be a conversation about all sorts of things. But I work "in computers", and the only thing to talk about is "so, my computer has started making this funny noise..." I find the same bias against people who do things in work life too. I have an MBA, but routinely find myself marginalised in meetings because I code. Somehow the guy from Sales who doesn't understand how the product works has a more respected opinion on our market strategy than the guy with the MBA who literally understands everything about both the market and the product (because I designed the product to meet the market). It's frustrating.

towerblock 6y ago

Of course, status is multidimensional, so to say it's "zero" is a bit immoderate. I studied CS in the UK (Cambridge) and I'd agree that it's not a prestigious field. Having said that, CS academics are generally fairly well off, some being posher than others. I think a major factor in the low status is their lack of cultural knowledge (cultural capital), even if they know or are related to others who do have it. Much of what can be said about CS in the UK is true of the "technical middle class" in general. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_British_Class_Survey#Technical_middle_class https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_British_Class_Survey#Tec... "The technical middle class, about 6 percent of British society, shows high economic capital, very high status of social contacts, but relatively few contacts reported, and moderate cultural capital. Occupations represented include medical radiographers, aircraft pilots, pharmacists, natural and social science professionals and physical scientists, senior professionals in education establishments, and business, research, and administrative positions.[17] The technical middle class is relatively well to do, with an average household incomes of £38,000, average savings of £66,000 and houses worth an average of £163,000. Members of the class report the lowest number of social contacts of any of the classes, though these do tend to be high status, probably mostly other professional experts. It is relatively culturally disengaged with both highbrow and emerging culture. Women comprise about 59 percent of this class. Many of technical middle class do research or scientific and technical work; a portion of the graduates are from established and prestigious universities with strong reputations for science, such as University of Birmingham, University of Warwick, University of Cambridge, University College London, University of Southampton, and Imperial College London with degrees in science and technology. Many of the technical middle class live in South East England where scientific and technical jobs are to be found. If they live in an urban area they live in the suburbs. Many of them have middle-class origins but are less engaged socially and culturally with the arts and humanities."

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
paganel 6y ago
> Much of what can be said about CS in the UK is true of the "technical middle class" in general. Going on a tangent here, but I observed the same thing while reading Proust's "In Search of Lost Time" when I was in high-school (20+ years ago), i.e. that the "technical middle class" and even the "technical upper class" of late 19th century France were way below the aristocracy of that time. A respected engineer who had graduated from the "École des mines" and who might have even held a job as a Government minister had no chance to attend the parties hosted by the duchesse de Guermantes. Things might have changed in the meantime, though.