6 ms·

Are they really getting punished for Ukraine though? My impression is that Europe by and large does almost nothing, partly out of fear of getting cut of from Ru

Are they really getting punished for Ukraine though? My impression is that Europe by and large does almost nothing, partly out of fear of getting cut of from Russian gas. There are some economical sanctions, yes, but do they hurt Russia? More than they hurt Europe's farmers? If there's any punishment, it certainly is not effective. Russia still occupies large parts of Ukraine (even some areas outside of the Crimea).

NicoJuicy 6y ago
They aren't getting punished enough, that's a fact. And currently Europe is subsidizing green energy a lot, so it's a slow process. If i'm not mistaking, Ukrain is becoming more and more anti-Russia.
- vic9109 6y ago
  I’m always confused when I see people cheering for sanctioning other nations. Is it pleasant to know that people are suffering, having done nothing wrong? I think it’s a global issue. Pretty sure almost everyone has had these thoughts when reading a news article about some wrongdoing of a foreign government and thought “why don’t we just nuke those Reds?”, “why can’t we just come and take over the North Korea”, “that’s it, it’s time to show those damn Iranians who’s the boss on this planet”. The media has evolved to take advantage of our emotional response. Hate seems to be the most useful one.
  - lovelyviking 6y ago
    Would you rather stand nearby and do nothing when Hitler was starting to kill and occupy? Well, Russia is doing exactly the same now. Russia took part of Ukraine, Russia is killing Ukrainians as we speak ... and they plan to do more ... Would you prefer that 'love' attitude toward all kinds of scumbags?
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - gdy 6y ago
      "Would you rather stand nearby and do nothing when Hitler was starting to kill and occupy?" What were you doing when the US invaded Iraq in 2003?
      - lovelyviking 6y ago
        Thanking US for stopping another dictator-sick-head. From your question and history of your comments I can presume that your empathies are with dictators and other scumbags. This is of course how it should be for a proper Russian propaganda. It's well established tradition of Russia to protect all sorts of scumbags and dictators. Also Russia started a WWII with their ally Hitler together attacking Poland. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6gg1z5DovI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6gg1z5DovI I know it's sad for some to see another dictator down, but that is how it should be with every dictator.
        gdy 6y ago
        Saddam got what he deserved, but the people of Iraq didn't deserved what came to them -- about half a million deaths[1] and later the rise of ISIS. Total number of people dead in the aftermath of American invasion is now bigger than the number of Saddams victims. Do you know that the US supported Saddam in his war of agression against Iran? [0] Saddam could've been hanged much earlier and countless lives could've been saved if not for American support of scumbag and dictator. As for WW2, please read about the Munich agreement.[2] [0]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Iraq_during_the_Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_War https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Ir... [1]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancet_surveys_of_Iraq_War_casualties https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancet_surveys_of_Iraq_War_c... [2]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement
    - vic9109 6y ago
      I’m simply against the “let’s go kill all $nation_name” attitude. It’s totally fine to take action against scumbags. I don’t think it’s fine to extend the hate onto the whole nation.
  - NicoJuicy 6y ago
    Nuking is unrelated to the discussion. I will never promote an actual war. Russia is meddling in foreign affairs, invading Ukraine, uselessly threatening Europe, trying to spread misinformation and killing other people in foreign countries ( London, Germany, ... ) Even now, Russia is trying to influence/take-over Ukrains news agency. This is not about conspiracy theories, these are plain facts. And for this, Russia deserves to be punished. And Russians should realize it is Putin's fault. We have been too soft on Russia for too long and the problems are just increasing. The soft approach isn't helping anymore. Edit: new from an hour ago. Nuclear radiation spike. Guess who it is... Again... https://www.iflscience.com/physics/unexplained-radiation-spike-over-europe-detected-by-scandinavian-monitoring-stations/ https://www.iflscience.com/physics/unexplained-radiation-spi...
    - vic9109 6y ago
      Russia is not the only country under the US sanctions. It always ends the same way — the government is largely unaffected, the people die in poverty. Sometimes they die because of the lack of medical equipment. It’s hard for them to leave because other countries are not eager to welcome them. It’s not war, but there end up being millions of casualties. Understandably, a country values its interests above the lives of foreigners. It all looks like a world-scale trolley problem.
      - lostmsu 6y ago
        What alternatives do you suggest? Ultimately people are responsible for their own government's actions.
      - NicoJuicy 6y ago
        Putin has more protests than ever. We'll see how that pans out, but I hope that they come back and the world trade table. As an adult this time :)
  - cogman10 6y ago
    Do you have an alternative to sanctions? I agree they aren't particularly effective, but they seem to be the "kindest" of actions you can take against an oppressive government that might lead to a civilian uprising. History is rife with examples of failures to stop oppressive regimes. Hell, look at North Korea. We fought a war, we've tried sanctions, we've tried lifting sanctions. Sure, they are propped up by China, but what else could be done to improve the lives of civilians there?
    - vic9109 6y ago
      I have no solution to that. The thing that consistently makes me sad is when people attribute the decisions of a government to all its citizens. There are 7b people on this planet, at least 2 of them cannot influence their governments in a meaningful way.
      - NicoJuicy 6y ago
        So, between war and trade sanctions. Trade sanctions still seem to be the better solution, no? While actually trading could be considered a reward for a decent government and a + for it's civilians.
chaoz_ 6y ago
Some oligarchs can't visit Europe/US anymore and spend their $$$ there.
Mirioron 6y ago
They are being punished for Ukraine, but it's always the people that suffers from trade sanctions. Look at Russia's GDP per capita graph: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?locations=RU https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?location... Russia had a GDP per capita of $16,007 in 2013. In 2014 Russia annexed Crimea. In 2016 Russia's GDP per capita was $8,745. This drop was twice as great as the 2008 economic crisis. It has recovered from it somewhat, but it'll take time to get back up again. Keep in mind though that other countries did have a dip in GDP per capita in 2015 as well, but nowhere near the same level as Russia. GDP per capita PPP did drop as well. More than after the 2008 crisis, but they have recovered from it by now. It definitely seems like Russia is economically in trouble. How much of this is from sanctions is hard to tell though.
Tade0 6y ago
partly out of fear of getting cut of from Russian gas This is less of a factor nowadays after the US lifted its self-imposed ban on LNG exports: https://www.ceep.be/lifting-us-oil-export-ban-lng/ https://www.ceep.be/lifting-us-oil-export-ban-lng/ They're still dependent, but so is Russia on those profits. Right after the sanctions started they tried to sell this gas to China, but didn't get a good deal on that.

NicoJuicy 6y ago

They aren't getting punished enough, that's a fact. And currently Europe is subsidizing green energy a lot, so it's a slow process. If i'm not mistaking, Ukrain is becoming more and more anti-Russia.

vic9109 6y ago
I’m always confused when I see people cheering for sanctioning other nations. Is it pleasant to know that people are suffering, having done nothing wrong? I think it’s a global issue. Pretty sure almost everyone has had these thoughts when reading a news article about some wrongdoing of a foreign government and thought “why don’t we just nuke those Reds?”, “why can’t we just come and take over the North Korea”, “that’s it, it’s time to show those damn Iranians who’s the boss on this planet”. The media has evolved to take advantage of our emotional response. Hate seems to be the most useful one.
- lovelyviking 6y ago
  Would you rather stand nearby and do nothing when Hitler was starting to kill and occupy? Well, Russia is doing exactly the same now. Russia took part of Ukraine, Russia is killing Ukrainians as we speak ... and they plan to do more ... Would you prefer that 'love' attitude toward all kinds of scumbags?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - gdy 6y ago
    "Would you rather stand nearby and do nothing when Hitler was starting to kill and occupy?" What were you doing when the US invaded Iraq in 2003?
    - lovelyviking 6y ago
      Thanking US for stopping another dictator-sick-head. From your question and history of your comments I can presume that your empathies are with dictators and other scumbags. This is of course how it should be for a proper Russian propaganda. It's well established tradition of Russia to protect all sorts of scumbags and dictators. Also Russia started a WWII with their ally Hitler together attacking Poland. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6gg1z5DovI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6gg1z5DovI I know it's sad for some to see another dictator down, but that is how it should be with every dictator.
      - gdy 6y ago
        Saddam got what he deserved, but the people of Iraq didn't deserved what came to them -- about half a million deaths[1] and later the rise of ISIS. Total number of people dead in the aftermath of American invasion is now bigger than the number of Saddams victims. Do you know that the US supported Saddam in his war of agression against Iran? [0] Saddam could've been hanged much earlier and countless lives could've been saved if not for American support of scumbag and dictator. As for WW2, please read about the Munich agreement.[2] [0]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Iraq_during_the_Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_War https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Ir... [1]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancet_surveys_of_Iraq_War_casualties https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancet_surveys_of_Iraq_War_c... [2]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement
  - vic9109 6y ago
    I’m simply against the “let’s go kill all $nation_name” attitude. It’s totally fine to take action against scumbags. I don’t think it’s fine to extend the hate onto the whole nation.
- NicoJuicy 6y ago
  Nuking is unrelated to the discussion. I will never promote an actual war. Russia is meddling in foreign affairs, invading Ukraine, uselessly threatening Europe, trying to spread misinformation and killing other people in foreign countries ( London, Germany, ... ) Even now, Russia is trying to influence/take-over Ukrains news agency. This is not about conspiracy theories, these are plain facts. And for this, Russia deserves to be punished. And Russians should realize it is Putin's fault. We have been too soft on Russia for too long and the problems are just increasing. The soft approach isn't helping anymore. Edit: new from an hour ago. Nuclear radiation spike. Guess who it is... Again... https://www.iflscience.com/physics/unexplained-radiation-spike-over-europe-detected-by-scandinavian-monitoring-stations/ https://www.iflscience.com/physics/unexplained-radiation-spi...
  - vic9109 6y ago
    Russia is not the only country under the US sanctions. It always ends the same way — the government is largely unaffected, the people die in poverty. Sometimes they die because of the lack of medical equipment. It’s hard for them to leave because other countries are not eager to welcome them. It’s not war, but there end up being millions of casualties. Understandably, a country values its interests above the lives of foreigners. It all looks like a world-scale trolley problem.
    - lostmsu 6y ago
      What alternatives do you suggest? Ultimately people are responsible for their own government's actions.
    - NicoJuicy 6y ago
      Putin has more protests than ever. We'll see how that pans out, but I hope that they come back and the world trade table. As an adult this time :)
- cogman10 6y ago
  Do you have an alternative to sanctions? I agree they aren't particularly effective, but they seem to be the "kindest" of actions you can take against an oppressive government that might lead to a civilian uprising. History is rife with examples of failures to stop oppressive regimes. Hell, look at North Korea. We fought a war, we've tried sanctions, we've tried lifting sanctions. Sure, they are propped up by China, but what else could be done to improve the lives of civilians there?
  - vic9109 6y ago
    I have no solution to that. The thing that consistently makes me sad is when people attribute the decisions of a government to all its citizens. There are 7b people on this planet, at least 2 of them cannot influence their governments in a meaningful way.
    - NicoJuicy 6y ago
      So, between war and trade sanctions. Trade sanctions still seem to be the better solution, no? While actually trading could be considered a reward for a decent government and a + for it's civilians.

chaoz_ 6y ago

Some oligarchs can't visit Europe/US anymore and spend their $$$ there.

Mirioron 6y ago

They are being punished for Ukraine, but it's always the people that suffers from trade sanctions. Look at Russia's GDP per capita graph: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?locations=RU https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?location... Russia had a GDP per capita of $16,007 in 2013. In 2014 Russia annexed Crimea. In 2016 Russia's GDP per capita was $8,745. This drop was twice as great as the 2008 economic crisis. It has recovered from it somewhat, but it'll take time to get back up again. Keep in mind though that other countries did have a dip in GDP per capita in 2015 as well, but nowhere near the same level as Russia. GDP per capita PPP did drop as well. More than after the 2008 crisis, but they have recovered from it by now. It definitely seems like Russia is economically in trouble. How much of this is from sanctions is hard to tell though.

Tade0 6y ago

partly out of fear of getting cut of from Russian gas This is less of a factor nowadays after the US lifted its self-imposed ban on LNG exports: https://www.ceep.be/lifting-us-oil-export-ban-lng/ https://www.ceep.be/lifting-us-oil-export-ban-lng/ They're still dependent, but so is Russia on those profits. Right after the sanctions started they tried to sell this gas to China, but didn't get a good deal on that.