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Nothing I would call "groundbreaking", but I do salute the warning about Russia's money and influence being happily accepted by the west right now. As somebody

Nothing I would call "groundbreaking", but I do salute the warning about Russia's money and influence being happily accepted by the west right now. As somebody who grew up in communist eastern europe I fear this russian strategy apparent success. A completely corrupt regime which puts incredibly little value on human rights is agitating people in the west with accounts of (comparatively ) minor incidents and imperfections in western systems and institutions. This includes a lot of things from anti EU sentiments to racial tensions. And it's working if you ask me.

luckylion 6y ago
A completely corrupt regime which puts incredibly little value on human rights in it's country. We (as in NATO, but mostly done by the executor of NATO, the US) don't really care about human rights globally either, but we're very adapt at pretending to when it's to our advantage, e.g. when we can use it to mobilize the population against China, or Russia. We're also very good at looking away when it's about our allies or our wars. I don't know whether "it" is working and if it is, how successful it is. I believe that it's a colossal mistake to say "well, there is anti EU sentiment, so Putin's strategy is successful" as if that sentiment couldn't exist without any outside influence. The same goes for racial tensions, they are not a new thing at all, and they go back to before Putin was born, so to ascribe them (in full or in significant part) to Russian influence is questionable at best. Here is my take: I'm sure there are Russian intelligence operations. I'm also convinced that they aren't "behind it all". Much like we did with the civil war in Syria (that is: provide money, guns, and training, because we wanted Assad gone), they are adding a bit of oil to the fire, but they can't start something where there is nothing to start a fire with. This whole "it's Russian propaganda, you're a bot/paid shill" bit, that also get thrown around on HN on relevant posts, is just a lazy way to silence dissent, and usually followed up with "the moderators should look into the posting patterns and ban these people". I'm sure the moderators would disclose it if it happened, and they haven't, so my money is on there being no such thing here, but still people believe in it, because it's an easy explanation for the experience of people disagreeing with them. The same, I believe, is true in society in general. If people can just hand-wave away different opinions with "ah, the Russian influence has created a movement", they're happy to do so, because it allows them to not question whether the other side might have a point. The Russians do the same, only to them it's American Agents that have infiltrated Russia and want to harm the Russian people.
- kindly_fo 6y ago
  I always find it funny to see 1-2 people on hn defend russia, that killed thousands of people, kids in moldova, georgia, ukraine, syria. You are just braindead or paid russian troll.
  - sidibe 6y ago
    For some reason the people who are most skeptical about absolutely everything else believe anything Russia wants them to.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    Literally the response I described, my prediction powers are increasing, it seems. If you read my comment again, you'll see that I don't defend Russia at all.
- trabant00 6y ago
  After living under the east and west influence there is little doubt which one is better as regards to human rights, standards of living, levels of corruption. To say the other side has the same problems is true but highly misleading. It's like saying both a mouse and an elephant have mass. Same for internal tensions in the west. Sure they exist regardless of Putin and Russia, but it's the size of problem that matters. Extremists without critical mass can't do much harm. A small fire can go out on it's own, but adding gasoline is a clear significant issue. The last part about calling the other side shills don't interest me much. Internet drama.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    > After living under the east and west influence there is little doubt which one is better as regards to human rights, standards of living, levels of corruption. I'm not saying anything to the contrary, but your statement sounded like only Russia disregards human rights. I believe the primary difference is that Russia will do to Russian citizens what we will do to Iraqis, but not to our citizens. > Same for internal tensions in the west. Sure they exist regardless of Putin and Russia, but it's the size of problem that matters. But how do you know what size they would "naturally" be? We've had huge conflicts in the West before Putin, we've even had huge conflicts before the Soviet Union was created. Political conflicts, racial tensions (with the occasional genocide) are nothing new. > The last part about calling the other side shills don't interest me much. Internet drama. I disagree, that's why I mentioned it. The same thing is happening offline as well. You're not a fan of further political integration of the EU, the Euro or Euro-Bonds? You'll quickly get called a Putin-bot, because that's the easiest response to dissent: they can't really believe something else, they must have a hidden agenda. Or, alternatively, the more insulting variant: they can't really believe that, they must be stupid and are directed by foreign powers without them knowing it.

luckylion 6y ago

A completely corrupt regime which puts incredibly little value on human rights in it's country. We (as in NATO, but mostly done by the executor of NATO, the US) don't really care about human rights globally either, but we're very adapt at pretending to when it's to our advantage, e.g. when we can use it to mobilize the population against China, or Russia. We're also very good at looking away when it's about our allies or our wars. I don't know whether "it" is working and if it is, how successful it is. I believe that it's a colossal mistake to say "well, there is anti EU sentiment, so Putin's strategy is successful" as if that sentiment couldn't exist without any outside influence. The same goes for racial tensions, they are not a new thing at all, and they go back to before Putin was born, so to ascribe them (in full or in significant part) to Russian influence is questionable at best. Here is my take: I'm sure there are Russian intelligence operations. I'm also convinced that they aren't "behind it all". Much like we did with the civil war in Syria (that is: provide money, guns, and training, because we wanted Assad gone), they are adding a bit of oil to the fire, but they can't start something where there is nothing to start a fire with. This whole "it's Russian propaganda, you're a bot/paid shill" bit, that also get thrown around on HN on relevant posts, is just a lazy way to silence dissent, and usually followed up with "the moderators should look into the posting patterns and ban these people". I'm sure the moderators would disclose it if it happened, and they haven't, so my money is on there being no such thing here, but still people believe in it, because it's an easy explanation for the experience of people disagreeing with them. The same, I believe, is true in society in general. If people can just hand-wave away different opinions with "ah, the Russian influence has created a movement", they're happy to do so, because it allows them to not question whether the other side might have a point. The Russians do the same, only to them it's American Agents that have infiltrated Russia and want to harm the Russian people.

kindly_fo 6y ago
I always find it funny to see 1-2 people on hn defend russia, that killed thousands of people, kids in moldova, georgia, ukraine, syria. You are just braindead or paid russian troll.
- sidibe 6y ago
  For some reason the people who are most skeptical about absolutely everything else believe anything Russia wants them to.
- luckylion 6y ago
  Literally the response I described, my prediction powers are increasing, it seems. If you read my comment again, you'll see that I don't defend Russia at all.
trabant00 6y ago
After living under the east and west influence there is little doubt which one is better as regards to human rights, standards of living, levels of corruption. To say the other side has the same problems is true but highly misleading. It's like saying both a mouse and an elephant have mass. Same for internal tensions in the west. Sure they exist regardless of Putin and Russia, but it's the size of problem that matters. Extremists without critical mass can't do much harm. A small fire can go out on it's own, but adding gasoline is a clear significant issue. The last part about calling the other side shills don't interest me much. Internet drama.
- luckylion 6y ago
  > After living under the east and west influence there is little doubt which one is better as regards to human rights, standards of living, levels of corruption. I'm not saying anything to the contrary, but your statement sounded like only Russia disregards human rights. I believe the primary difference is that Russia will do to Russian citizens what we will do to Iraqis, but not to our citizens. > Same for internal tensions in the west. Sure they exist regardless of Putin and Russia, but it's the size of problem that matters. But how do you know what size they would "naturally" be? We've had huge conflicts in the West before Putin, we've even had huge conflicts before the Soviet Union was created. Political conflicts, racial tensions (with the occasional genocide) are nothing new. > The last part about calling the other side shills don't interest me much. Internet drama. I disagree, that's why I mentioned it. The same thing is happening offline as well. You're not a fan of further political integration of the EU, the Euro or Euro-Bonds? You'll quickly get called a Putin-bot, because that's the easiest response to dissent: they can't really believe something else, they must have a hidden agenda. Or, alternatively, the more insulting variant: they can't really believe that, they must be stupid and are directed by foreign powers without them knowing it.