5 ms·

The comment is about Rudolf Steiner and the anthroposophic movement where many of the permaculture (but also a lot of lets say more questionable) ideas have be

by patall 6y ago

The comment is about Rudolf Steiner and the anthroposophic movement where many of the permaculture (but also a lot of lets say more questionable) ideas have been popular: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodynamic_agriculture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodynamic_agriculture

waihtis 6y ago
Thanks! Reading through the approach it does seem esoteric part is quite limited to small things like the moon calendar and using "magic" fertilizers.. I wonder how widespread those approaches really are.
- LunaSea 6y ago
  It's the biodynamic agriculture is basically biological agriculture plus magic. No serious scientific research has been proven any merit to the ideas.
- patall 6y ago
  They are quite widespread for one reason: certificates. Demeter is one of the oldest and most strict organic certificates and also probably the most powerful. If a farmer really wants to do sustainable agriculture, it makes sense to go for the demeter certificates as it is well known and generally one of the best paying. Unfortunately, to get it you have to take part in the stupid 'magic' to get it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demeter_International https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demeter_International (That and I really feel irritated when I go to an organic bakery and they also try to sell you energized water. On my last skiing trip they sold home made lemonade but with Grander water. I asked whether I could get it without and they told me that is not possible and why the hell would you opt-out if you do not believe in it. Didn't make it cheaper for me though, and they certaily pay quite a bit for that fraud.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Grander https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Grander
  - waihtis 6y ago
    Ha, very interesting, had never heard of either Demeter or Grander. Your lemonade experience may be an example of the "tyranny of minorities" :-)
Melting_Harps 6y ago
> The comment is about Rudolf Steiner and the anthroposophic movement where many of the permaculture (but also a lot of lets say more questionable) ideas have been popular: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodynamic_agriculture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodynamic_agriculture I like how I no longer have to explain something like this entirely by myself on a VC based Technology forum: progress has been made to say the least! Correct, this is about Anthroposophia, or much of what I regarded as 'woo' in my initial response. its mandatory reading and learning in Demeter certified Ag practices/apprenticeships. As a Biologist not only was I entirely skeptical, I sought out to disprove it all. However, the chef in me just couldn't fathom why the products tasted so much better, so when Ipaid off my student debt I undertook a 2.5 year apprenticeship in Europe (mainly Germany were it has the most Demeter certified cultivated hectares in the World, despite it being an Austrian method) while I also worked and eventually ran Agro-tourism kitchens. Its also worth noting that Waldorfschules/Steiner-schools are also tied to these practices and is part of the curriculum. As for the validity, I'm a Cellular-Molecular Biologist, and I spent 3.5 years in a lab doing diagnostics specifically focused on Leukemia and Lymphoma. Suffice it to say I know how to work in a laboratory setting and know how to create experimental designs. I conducted approximately 250 controlled experiments from all the farms I worked on (some just Bio/Organic and Permaculture as well as my Biodynamic ones in various countries) that mainly tested planting and weeding, the planting/seeding/transplanting yielded far more favorable results when I followed the lunar calendar then not. Things like weeding and when to start a compost were not as objectively provable. Things like pest control, or water-hat things were not something I sough to test more than once after it didn't do anything noticeable. It felt very 'energy crystal' to me and I needed to focus my time on more pertinent matters as I was also running working in the farmer stands, CSA program, Kindergarten/special needs student garden programs as well as running Kitchens. Suffice it to say, my time was often limited as an apprentice and I was spread very thin; so it wouldn't be until I managed a farm in Hawaii with completely different settings that I'd get to the watering aspect in earnest. Specifically the aeration of water sources (turbulence/chaos) you use when making those preps and the water sources. This was later seen in the MJ industry and competitions for the largest height and canopy was often won by growers with not only the right genetics but had also used water aeration frequently into the root system. The methods have merit, but the 'woo' is what throws people off. AThe preps used (502-507) are actually grounded in very sound Microbiology, all you are doing is re-introducing the flora/fauna found in the soil from the previous year into the top soil before planting an ideally crop rotated set of cultures into the prepared soil. Its the equivalent of probiotics for the soil and getting it ready to ensure the roots of the starter plants or seeds are starting off as best as possible. Conventional farmers will argue NPK ratios are the holy grail, and a small number will even care about pH, but in doing so they negate not just the sustainability, but that of the depletion of the soils ability to recreate those nutrients themselves as seen in biodyanmics with having had ruminants graze the land prior to the planting season. A biodynamic farm, and to a much lesser degree permaculture, seek to find a balance in which external inputs are no longer needed and developing its own terroir and equilibrium with the output. In a Biodynamic farm its perhaps like one approaches a savings account, and the soil is the unit of currency, the more you put away the more you can draw from it and not have to worry about depleting it all in a single season. The soil or humous is often pitch black like coffee grunds and floral-herbal smelling, one apple orchard I spent some time in Switzerland had soil that honestly smelled of basil. Little did I know the farmer had spent over 25 years revamping those orchards, that yielded over 15 different cultivars he created himself, but had also spent over 3 million CHF to do it having taken it over from a conventional farmer. He had a wife, children, and several apprentices he regarded and his extended children, but that apple orchard was his Life's work. This is a fundamental difference in why to this day the best tomato I have ever had wasn't in Italy, Spain, Greece, Portugal or any other country you'd associate with tomato cultivation. Those from the Med countries were good, but it was in Southern Germany that had practiced Biodynamics for over 75 years is where I had the most complex and flavourful tomato in my entire Life. I was obviously biased as it was my own crop, but... to this day I still cannot say I've had one with so many layers of flavour it started off sweet, then went tart to sour, and then savoury and then back to sweet, it made you want to keep chewing and depending on the cultivar (we had 4 that year) it felt like you were eating a lean cut of meat. Its was no surprise most of our clientele at the farmers markets were vegetarians and vegans. My journal was stolen (along with my luggage) on the Am-track on my way to help convert an Organic Farm to Biodynamic in Petaluma, so after having cried my eyes out about it I only have the notes I wrote down on my laptop from back then which is not as extensive as my journal was. Honestly, I always just did a blind taste when I went to the farmers market: I'd line up our seasonal Biodynaimc product, alongside a conventional one I bought from the super market, and an organic one form the competitors and 85% of the time they always went from the Biodynamic one only judged on appearance and taste. The price is always what made people not purchase it in the undecided people, mainly because it can be over 20% more than Organic. It is essentially the Rolls Royce of Food, and unless you're used to the price tag you usually get sticker shock if you're not used to it. Biodynamic wines sell well in the US, we had several at the Kitchen where I worked at and it always sold well. We choose local, organic meat and even though we have a restaurant/farm that's Biodynamic management chose to buy from an organic vendor. It was good and sold well, I just hung out with one of my old teammates and they recently changed the entire menu selling more hooch-coture chefy inspired dishes then when I was there (Foie gras, lobster, tomahawk steaks etc...) so I can't speak of it until I sit down and eat and talk to chef about it. This is Kimbal's Flagship restaurant that he and Hugo not only opened together but used to work in themselves for a period so its the most prestigious of all and has been doing this kind of farm-to-table cuisine for over 16 years now. Again, I can nerd about this and probably write a book on various topics as a farmer and a chef if allowed to do so, so unless anyone wants any specific questions answered other posters seem to have a good enough grasp of things that I really only need to fill in the gaps. Still, its made my day to know not only that this much discussion takes place HERE about these topics, but that people seem genuinely interested, albeit skeptical (which I personally encourage as it was my position, too) about these practices. I honestly think it proves we in the Community and Movement won this battle and critical mass is now emerging.

by patall 6y ago

waihtis 6y ago

Thanks! Reading through the approach it does seem esoteric part is quite limited to small things like the moon calendar and using "magic" fertilizers.. I wonder how widespread those approaches really are.

LunaSea 6y ago
It's the biodynamic agriculture is basically biological agriculture plus magic. No serious scientific research has been proven any merit to the ideas.
patall 6y ago
They are quite widespread for one reason: certificates. Demeter is one of the oldest and most strict organic certificates and also probably the most powerful. If a farmer really wants to do sustainable agriculture, it makes sense to go for the demeter certificates as it is well known and generally one of the best paying. Unfortunately, to get it you have to take part in the stupid 'magic' to get it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demeter_International https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demeter_International (That and I really feel irritated when I go to an organic bakery and they also try to sell you energized water. On my last skiing trip they sold home made lemonade but with Grander water. I asked whether I could get it without and they told me that is not possible and why the hell would you opt-out if you do not believe in it. Didn't make it cheaper for me though, and they certaily pay quite a bit for that fraud.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Grander https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Grander
- waihtis 6y ago
  Ha, very interesting, had never heard of either Demeter or Grander. Your lemonade experience may be an example of the "tyranny of minorities" :-)

Melting_Harps 6y ago

> The comment is about Rudolf Steiner and the anthroposophic movement where many of the permaculture (but also a lot of lets say more questionable) ideas have been popular: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodynamic_agriculture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodynamic_agriculture I like how I no longer have to explain something like this entirely by myself on a VC based Technology forum: progress has been made to say the least! Correct, this is about Anthroposophia, or much of what I regarded as 'woo' in my initial response. its mandatory reading and learning in Demeter certified Ag practices/apprenticeships. As a Biologist not only was I entirely skeptical, I sought out to disprove it all. However, the chef in me just couldn't fathom why the products tasted so much better, so when Ipaid off my student debt I undertook a 2.5 year apprenticeship in Europe (mainly Germany were it has the most Demeter certified cultivated hectares in the World, despite it being an Austrian method) while I also worked and eventually ran Agro-tourism kitchens. Its also worth noting that Waldorfschules/Steiner-schools are also tied to these practices and is part of the curriculum. As for the validity, I'm a Cellular-Molecular Biologist, and I spent 3.5 years in a lab doing diagnostics specifically focused on Leukemia and Lymphoma. Suffice it to say I know how to work in a laboratory setting and know how to create experimental designs. I conducted approximately 250 controlled experiments from all the farms I worked on (some just Bio/Organic and Permaculture as well as my Biodynamic ones in various countries) that mainly tested planting and weeding, the planting/seeding/transplanting yielded far more favorable results when I followed the lunar calendar then not. Things like weeding and when to start a compost were not as objectively provable. Things like pest control, or water-hat things were not something I sough to test more than once after it didn't do anything noticeable. It felt very 'energy crystal' to me and I needed to focus my time on more pertinent matters as I was also running working in the farmer stands, CSA program, Kindergarten/special needs student garden programs as well as running Kitchens. Suffice it to say, my time was often limited as an apprentice and I was spread very thin; so it wouldn't be until I managed a farm in Hawaii with completely different settings that I'd get to the watering aspect in earnest. Specifically the aeration of water sources (turbulence/chaos) you use when making those preps and the water sources. This was later seen in the MJ industry and competitions for the largest height and canopy was often won by growers with not only the right genetics but had also used water aeration frequently into the root system. The methods have merit, but the 'woo' is what throws people off. AThe preps used (502-507) are actually grounded in very sound Microbiology, all you are doing is re-introducing the flora/fauna found in the soil from the previous year into the top soil before planting an ideally crop rotated set of cultures into the prepared soil. Its the equivalent of probiotics for the soil and getting it ready to ensure the roots of the starter plants or seeds are starting off as best as possible. Conventional farmers will argue NPK ratios are the holy grail, and a small number will even care about pH, but in doing so they negate not just the sustainability, but that of the depletion of the soils ability to recreate those nutrients themselves as seen in biodyanmics with having had ruminants graze the land prior to the planting season. A biodynamic farm, and to a much lesser degree permaculture, seek to find a balance in which external inputs are no longer needed and developing its own terroir and equilibrium with the output. In a Biodynamic farm its perhaps like one approaches a savings account, and the soil is the unit of currency, the more you put away the more you can draw from it and not have to worry about depleting it all in a single season. The soil or humous is often pitch black like coffee grunds and floral-herbal smelling, one apple orchard I spent some time in Switzerland had soil that honestly smelled of basil. Little did I know the farmer had spent over 25 years revamping those orchards, that yielded over 15 different cultivars he created himself, but had also spent over 3 million CHF to do it having taken it over from a conventional farmer. He had a wife, children, and several apprentices he regarded and his extended children, but that apple orchard was his Life's work. This is a fundamental difference in why to this day the best tomato I have ever had wasn't in Italy, Spain, Greece, Portugal or any other country you'd associate with tomato cultivation. Those from the Med countries were good, but it was in Southern Germany that had practiced Biodynamics for over 75 years is where I had the most complex and flavourful tomato in my entire Life. I was obviously biased as it was my own crop, but... to this day I still cannot say I've had one with so many layers of flavour it started off sweet, then went tart to sour, and then savoury and then back to sweet, it made you want to keep chewing and depending on the cultivar (we had 4 that year) it felt like you were eating a lean cut of meat. Its was no surprise most of our clientele at the farmers markets were vegetarians and vegans. My journal was stolen (along with my luggage) on the Am-track on my way to help convert an Organic Farm to Biodynamic in Petaluma, so after having cried my eyes out about it I only have the notes I wrote down on my laptop from back then which is not as extensive as my journal was. Honestly, I always just did a blind taste when I went to the farmers market: I'd line up our seasonal Biodynaimc product, alongside a conventional one I bought from the super market, and an organic one form the competitors and 85% of the time they always went from the Biodynamic one only judged on appearance and taste. The price is always what made people not purchase it in the undecided people, mainly because it can be over 20% more than Organic. It is essentially the Rolls Royce of Food, and unless you're used to the price tag you usually get sticker shock if you're not used to it. Biodynamic wines sell well in the US, we had several at the Kitchen where I worked at and it always sold well. We choose local, organic meat and even though we have a restaurant/farm that's Biodynamic management chose to buy from an organic vendor. It was good and sold well, I just hung out with one of my old teammates and they recently changed the entire menu selling more hooch-coture chefy inspired dishes then when I was there (Foie gras, lobster, tomahawk steaks etc...) so I can't speak of it until I sit down and eat and talk to chef about it. This is Kimbal's Flagship restaurant that he and Hugo not only opened together but used to work in themselves for a period so its the most prestigious of all and has been doing this kind of farm-to-table cuisine for over 16 years now. Again, I can nerd about this and probably write a book on various topics as a farmer and a chef if allowed to do so, so unless anyone wants any specific questions answered other posters seem to have a good enough grasp of things that I really only need to fill in the gaps. Still, its made my day to know not only that this much discussion takes place HERE about these topics, but that people seem genuinely interested, albeit skeptical (which I personally encourage as it was my position, too) about these practices. I honestly think it proves we in the Community and Movement won this battle and critical mass is now emerging.